Sandra Thompson is an expert on Emotional Intelligence and Founder of Ei Evolution and is on a mission to equip leaders with this vital skill. Engaging, knowledgeable and fun this is a must listen 💜
[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap.
[00:00:04] Today I'm really pleased to be joined by Sandra Thompson who is empathy expert and founder of EI Evolution.
[00:00:13] Grim missing there but I was lucky enough at a conference recently to hear Sandra talk
[00:00:19] and I was just blown away as I'm sure many of you have been over the years.
[00:00:23] So we've tried once before but I'm really pleased that you're here now Sandra
[00:00:28] so thank you very much for doing this.
[00:00:30] Well thank you and I think it was almost a rugby tackle.
[00:00:34] I'm going to be on your show, what are we doing it?
[00:00:37] So here we are.
[00:00:38] It was a very good rugby tackle.
[00:00:41] No broken noses were all good.
[00:00:43] So I'd love to start with why empathy and emotional intelligence, why is this such a passion for you?
[00:00:52] It goes back a little way and I'll make it brief because otherwise I could be here all day.
[00:00:56] So I completed a masters in strategic communications and the invitation,
[00:01:03] actually it wasn't an invitation I had to do a dissertation and it was like a blank canvas
[00:01:10] and I was at my sister's house.
[00:01:12] My brother-in-law just bought this book Emotion Intelligence by Goldman.
[00:01:16] You know the whole premise being that you didn't have to have a high IQ to succeed or might drop.
[00:01:24] So I read that and thought I know all right about this there's something in it,
[00:01:29] there's definitely something in it because we've all met those people who academically aren't that qualified in a verb commas
[00:01:37] but they have such incredible presence and gravitas and they're so successful
[00:01:43] because they are brilliant with people.
[00:01:45] So I wrote my dissertation and Kenny believed it must have forgotten about that
[00:01:49] and then I was teaching, I started teaching for a college in central London.
[00:01:55] They had applied for a TEDx license so TEDx is like a regional version of TED
[00:02:01] and they asked me if I'd like to speak and I thought ah here it is,
[00:02:05] here's the opportunity to dust down that dissertation and then prepare a talk.
[00:02:11] Now 20 years on there is ridiculous amount of stuff on Emotion Intelligence
[00:02:18] but the premise is the same, the premise is the skill of emotional intelligence
[00:02:25] enables you to identify your emotions and to manage them better
[00:02:31] and I think to myself that's incredible.
[00:02:35] I mean that's incredible because it means that you're not the mercy of your emotions
[00:02:41] and let's face it particularly in the last five years it's been an emotional rollercoaster for all of us
[00:02:46] and it's, you know life is moving at such a pace.
[00:02:52] We do need to look after ourselves and we can show up more effectively with this skill
[00:02:59] so I guess the reason why I'm so passionate about it is that anyone anywhere at any age can learn the skill
[00:03:09] and when you are more proficient in the skill and it's a lifelong journey to learn it
[00:03:15] and to keep learning it things are so much better, people are more healthy.
[00:03:21] There's the study in the States where lawyers who practice Emotion Intelligence have fewer heart attacks
[00:03:27] and fewer strokes. There are better relationships, you have a better life
[00:03:33] and so I'm incredibly infused by it because I also see the difference it makes to young people
[00:03:42] and children, little kids being taught how to regulate their breathing
[00:03:47] how to manage their emotions and it's just a game changer
[00:03:51] and so I'm a big fan.
[00:03:53] I love it, I love that whole and it's come to me kind of, kind of you find this
[00:04:00] I think once you start understanding some of the terminology and like you I've started, I've read a few books
[00:04:06] and it enabled me to look back
[00:04:10] and I worked for a wonderful man who when I was quite a young leader said to me once
[00:04:18] look you wear your heart on your sleeve and that's great when it's great
[00:04:24] but there's real highs and real lows and you have to remember as a leader
[00:04:29] you have an impact about the people around you so when you're emotional
[00:04:33] and that's great and you're bubbly and you're enthusiastic and you're full of energy
[00:04:38] you carry people around you but when something goes wrong or you're unhappy with an injustice
[00:04:44] and you're raging against the machine which was my kind of two states really
[00:04:50] he said you've got to find a way to keep that in check I think with the words he used
[00:04:58] and I must admit at the time I was a little bit lost as to how to do that
[00:05:03] so the evolvement of our understanding of that now
[00:05:09] does it all sit under the umbrella of emotional intelligence or is there a distinction between that and empathy
[00:05:17] so I want to respond to a couple of things that you've said before I answer that question if that's okay
[00:05:23] so what you've described I absolutely relate to because I was exactly the same
[00:05:30] it was either yeah get her in the room she's amazing or avoid her like the plague
[00:05:36] she's a bomb that might go off
[00:05:38] she's a bomb I can see it it's about to detonate
[00:05:41] because I was so passionate about what I did and I felt it I really felt it everything
[00:05:47] and I think that if people can get their heads around this thing called emotional contagion
[00:05:55] it will help them consider the impact that they have because very often
[00:06:00] people don't have the awareness of their impact on others
[00:06:05] we have this aura about us we have an energy about us and that's the amazing thing about our species
[00:06:12] is that we pick up we pick up on any slight thing if we're chained into it
[00:06:17] we can pick it up we can read the room we can see exactly what's going on
[00:06:21] and the ability to recognise the emotion and to give it a name and to sit with it as it were
[00:06:29] doesn't mean to say that you still don't feel the highs and the lows
[00:06:34] it just means that you're able to articulate them in a more measured way
[00:06:40] so I can honestly tell you that I still have the ah and I still have the mmm
[00:06:45] but I'm able to most often although the household here might disagree with you
[00:06:51] but I'm able to say you know that really has annoyed me and I'm frustrated by it rather than
[00:06:58] red mist and smoke coming up my ears now in answer to your question
[00:07:04] and I love these questions about the relationship between empathy and emotional intelligence
[00:07:11] I want to play something out to you which actually came up in the talk that you made reference to
[00:07:16] at the beginning of this recording empathy on its own in my experience is a bit useless
[00:07:26] because if I say to you Martin I know exactly how you feel
[00:07:32] you must be really frustrated by that or my brother feels exactly the same
[00:07:37] you went through exactly the same thing it's likely that you'll be like
[00:07:42] well I'm not your brother and it's not frustration that I'm feeling
[00:07:47] and you might think oh silly old bat never mind or you might think
[00:07:51] don't you tell me how I'm feeling you've got absolutely no idea
[00:07:56] but the interesting thing about emotion intelligence is that it's like the headline
[00:08:00] and empathy is one of the 12 competencies within emotional intelligence
[00:08:07] so if we master this whole thing of identifying how we feel and then managing how we feel
[00:08:15] the chances are that when I'm then trying to be empathetic with you
[00:08:20] I'm going to be there for you and I'm not going to be saying to you
[00:08:24] actually this is what I'm feeling you must be feeling the same thing
[00:08:27] because every single individual is completely different
[00:08:30] so when you practice emotional intelligence it means that you ask great questions
[00:08:36] and you don't make any assumptions and you don't try and label the other person's emotion
[00:08:41] because you can't possibly know so I think that we with good intention
[00:08:48] we teach people empathy in inverted commas
[00:08:52] but if we just taught them emotional intelligence first
[00:08:55] they will be so much more brilliant at empathizing
[00:09:01] because you're right that kind of in that little scenario you played out
[00:09:04] it's a bit hit and miss isn't it
[00:09:06] it would be luck
[00:09:08] yeah
[00:09:09] that I would go yeah you're right I am frustrated or to your point
[00:09:13] well now I don't actually feel frustration should I be feeling frustration
[00:09:17] so the as you know through the team leader community
[00:09:21] and you mentioned kind of young leaders and even children
[00:09:25] where how would you advise people or what do you say to people around
[00:09:29] starting that journey to become competent in emotional intelligence
[00:09:34] the first thing is to develop the ability to recognize how you're feeling
[00:09:42] now that sounds so incredibly simple
[00:09:47] and when I was training with Goldman and his faculty
[00:09:51] I thought you're having a laugh aren't you
[00:09:54] I'm paid all this money for you to tell me something I absolutely know
[00:09:58] and then you have to practice it
[00:10:01] and then you realize to start with it's actually really hard
[00:10:06] because you've got to stop in the moment
[00:10:10] and you've got to sit with it and be quiet
[00:10:13] and just try and figure out which of the plethora of emotions you might be feeling
[00:10:20] and so you can sense that something is rising in you
[00:10:26] you feel a bit like or it can just not all the negative stuff
[00:10:29] it's positive stuff and you might start to journal
[00:10:33] now journal sounds a bit kind of like
[00:10:36] I wonder if your audience will know Janet and John a bit too simple
[00:10:39] but ultimately just a couple of minutes a day
[00:10:43] if you can just a couple of minutes a day
[00:10:45] take out a book with a pen or a pencil and write stuff down
[00:10:49] it's really important to go through the process of thinking about it
[00:10:54] and then writing it there's something neurological that happens
[00:10:58] when you do that it's like you're clearing your brain
[00:11:01] and you're making notes about it
[00:11:03] and if you're able to get into that practice of making a few notes
[00:11:07] just for a couple of minutes to start
[00:11:09] and then maybe five minutes a day
[00:11:11] you'll start to understand how you're feeling
[00:11:15] and what it is that makes you feel not too good
[00:11:19] or something that makes you feel really great
[00:11:21] the other great thing about writing
[00:11:23] means that you're applying language to it
[00:11:26] so there's this thing that neuroscientists talk about
[00:11:29] which is called emotional granularity
[00:11:33] and it's the ability to find words
[00:11:36] to describe how you feel
[00:11:38] so when someone says to me how are you feeling
[00:11:41] rrrrrrrearq theosaurus
[00:11:43] whereas others might say fine
[00:11:45] or they might say grumpy
[00:11:47] grumpy and when they're able to then sit with it and say well actually I'm feeling jealous or
[00:11:56] angry or irritated just using a greater variety of words with greater specification
[00:12:06] means you then are more able to manage it. So in short take some time which is counter-intuitive
[00:12:14] because we want to go 100 miles an hour and there's no time to do anything. Just take the time
[00:12:19] to figure out how it is you're feeling, write about it and over time you will become more articulate
[00:12:26] in describing how you're feeling and then more capable of managing that.
[00:12:32] I've always liked the idea of journaling. I've kind of started and then either lose the notebook
[00:12:39] don't really keep to the discipline of doing it but then for Apple users they it was I think about
[00:12:47] six months ago on an update they sort of automatically gave you journal like an app
[00:12:54] and so I started doing a few minutes in that like you say at the end of the day just writing stuff
[00:13:01] in it about how I'd felt during the day or what I'd been up to. Is there something in the fact that
[00:13:07] I would look back so I'd scroll back and look for the some previous days and it would be like
[00:13:13] I was viewing myself as a third person because I'd look at it and go oh I was I was raging I was
[00:13:21] raging then that's nothing to get why was I so annoyed you know because it enabled me to go oh well
[00:13:26] I even subconsciously think well I don't that isn't that wasn't a real you know I didn't really
[00:13:34] feel that but I've written like I was I did so next time I know that this is only this this
[00:13:42] feeling is only going to last maybe even seconds it's happened before I've written about it and
[00:13:48] then I've gone back in and gone actually everything's fine you know so is there something in as well
[00:13:54] as the because I love the application of what you've just said around adding more value
[00:14:00] more meaning increasing the vocabulary so you can better understand the ingredients that make up how
[00:14:06] you're feeling right so there's 50 grams of jealousy there's a hundred two tablespoons of
[00:14:12] irritation or whatever it may be but is there also something in being able to
[00:14:19] kind of analyze where you were as if you're looking at somebody else I love that
[00:14:26] ingredients I'm going to take that from you Martin I love that thank you thank you thank you so
[00:14:32] if you can imagine for a minute so you're hammering in there you get your thumb you smack your thumb
[00:14:38] you can see it because it's outside of yourself and you can examine it and it's pulsating you put
[00:14:43] it under the water it starts to bruise and then nail falls off yada yada yada it's outside of
[00:14:48] you so you can see it because you can't see your brain be a bit worried if you could
[00:14:53] this is the best start of that relationship with that thing I mean we've the brain is so incredibly
[00:15:01] sophisticated we you know neuroscientists are finding out more every year through MRI scans and
[00:15:08] etc but because we can't see it this is the best way for us to create a better relationship with it
[00:15:16] and I think that there's something else that you've said which is so critically important
[00:15:22] when I was being taught how to coach and I had an incredible coach a lady from New York who
[00:15:29] I don't know how she did what she did but she was utterly brilliant because she was able to spot things
[00:15:36] almost straight away and ask some of the most incredibly difficult and powerful questions
[00:15:40] but she would say to me just imagine that they're clouds and those clouds pass and actually
[00:15:48] if you're able to practice the skill of emotion intelligence the wind is running much faster and
[00:15:54] those clouds will move far quicker she also taught me yeah I mean you know this stuff will stay with
[00:16:01] you right and the other thing that she taught me which I actually practiced with some students
[00:16:06] I did some teaching some years ago and I would say here's an idea let's take that thing that
[00:16:13] you're worrying about and we're not going to forget about it but I'm going to move that thing
[00:16:18] to 5 30 tonight I'm going to worry about it at 5 30 it's not gone I'm not getting rid of it
[00:16:26] but it's definitely moved to that time okay everyone right yeah brilliant and then the next time I
[00:16:33] lectured them how was that 5 30 what are you talking about the thing that you were really
[00:16:38] worried about how was it we went back to it right because it's really important dissipated gone
[00:16:44] and that's important because you need to you cut it's really important to acknowledge
[00:16:51] that you're feeling something so you can't say there's no clouds because there definitely is
[00:16:55] something but you do have the choice you have the choice to say and this two will pass or I
[00:17:01] will deal with that later I'm giving it respect but I'm going to deal with it later but it's
[00:17:07] gone so excuse me the fact that you've recognised it and the fact that you've decided you've made
[00:17:14] a conscious choice that those emotions are not of service to you you move past them
[00:17:23] and in that in that service to you I imagine there's also something around decision making
[00:17:29] as well because making any kind of decisions when you're within you're right underneath that
[00:17:36] cloud for example you're certainly from my own experience I can I can look back and think all
[00:17:42] you know and this was right from that those early interactions as a young leader you
[00:17:47] you're more likely to make poorer decisions if they're based right in the middle of that kind of
[00:17:54] emotion that you're feeling so that the time that you leave that you get away from it you can
[00:18:00] make a more considered decision that's more you know more likely to be of better service to you
[00:18:05] and those around you 100 so again I'm not a neuroscientist but I've learned a little bit
[00:18:12] about the brain and anyone that's listening if you've not read the chimp paradox I would like to
[00:18:17] strongly recommend it but I'm going to talk about a couple of characters from that book
[00:18:23] so you've got the chimp that sits in the emotional bit and then you've got a stick person
[00:18:28] that's in the prefrontal cortex the prefrontal cortex really where you do lots of decision making it's
[00:18:35] the executive centre it's the newer bit of our brain and the chimp who is really helpful it will
[00:18:41] stop you from being run over by a bus but it does tend to react so what we're talking about here
[00:18:48] is the chimp is going berserk because it's like feeling angry or enraged and because it needs to
[00:18:57] ensure that you Martin survive this terrible email that's come through that's whammed you up it's a
[00:19:03] survival thing it's going to say to the it's not going to say anything actually to the prefrontal
[00:19:08] cortex it's just going to cut it off so we're not doing any let's do a list of pros and cons
[00:19:13] about this email we're not thinking logically about it it's a email back bullet points
[00:19:20] uppercase underlined bold red you'd aim it whereas if you gave yourself a moment to calm the chimp down
[00:19:29] to say this is what i'm feeling and the chimp goes all right i'm going to take a break i'm going to
[00:19:34] have a cheeky little martini i'm going to relax and then the stick man or stick person says
[00:19:39] now i'm in charge again excellent so let's make a great decision let's be as logical as we can
[00:19:44] about it lovely and that's really what's going on in the brain we don't make good decisions
[00:19:50] because our prefrontal cortex isn't engaged i mean come on it's basic it's basic brain stuff but
[00:19:58] we don't know this stuff because we're not taught this stuff but if i knew that 30 years ago you
[00:20:05] want to save me a lot of time and grief martin to be honest someone gave me a great tip actually
[00:20:10] was they could see me rage typing when i was like oh muttering i can't believe that director's done this
[00:20:17] this is ridiculous he's never you know blah blah blah and it was a peer of mine when i was a contact
[00:20:23] centre manager just said whatever you are typing stick it in draft stick do not send stick it
[00:20:29] in draft write it but then come back to it and if you're still happy with it in a in an hour
[00:20:34] or two hours time or whatever then fine send it but do not send it now and that really that kind of
[00:20:41] that help that really did and and even the saying you know i'm going to sleep on that decision
[00:20:48] if you've ever if you've watched the film inside out i think i don't know if it's a
[00:20:52] pixel or a disney movie there's a new one coming out in in june they've got this beautiful scene
[00:20:59] where they've got a character who's hovering in the brain they're hovering up they're cleaning up
[00:21:05] because the character the main character has gone to sleep and they're dealing with spring cleaning
[00:21:09] it's all lovely and that's critical because if you've had a big day and it's been quite it's
[00:21:16] been quite a perhaps a drama if you're able to not everyone is able to but if you do have
[00:21:22] the choice to make the decision the following day all the hoovering up is done all the
[00:21:28] toxins are taken and you can think far more clearly because your brain has had some chance
[00:21:33] to process this stuff and it means that you're more likely to not have to go back to that
[00:21:41] decision and undo it if you have some time i mean again it's it's it seems like in a
[00:21:49] common sense but the speed at which we're working the perceived need to do everything
[00:21:58] immediately and without a moment's break is not really how humans should be operating
[00:22:06] i'm not saying like put your feet up for every every 10 minutes in every you know
[00:22:10] 10 minutes for every half an hour you do but i am saying that if we honor how we feel
[00:22:18] we actually save time that's the irony of all of this now i'm guilty of sending that email
[00:22:26] you know steam coming out of the laptop i've sent that email and the amount of time it's
[00:22:31] taken me to repair that relationship was so much so much more significant than if i put it into
[00:22:39] draft and i sent it a bit later on i love it and so we you're recommending journaling and then
[00:22:47] what would what else would you say for and again i guess i don't know why but i'm i'm in my mind
[00:22:53] i'm thinking new leaders you know where an emotionally intelligent leader is going to be
[00:23:00] so much better for them for them and for the people around them and the team that they're
[00:23:04] that they're leading where where would you take them to next i think listening and again this
[00:23:11] sounds so boring doesn't it but there's a really brilliant exercise and i'd invite your listeners
[00:23:17] to to practice this if they have a minute so two individuals sat facing one another
[00:23:24] one person so person a is speaking for two minutes and person b is silent
[00:23:30] and then you do that size person a is talking to person b then you stop then person b talks to person
[00:23:37] a silence but being present making eye contact it's remarkable people feel heard they've not been
[00:23:48] interrupted it feels a bit unnerving at first because you're used to people sort of going to
[00:23:55] set something so you're thinking are they really listening this is a bit weird i feel a bit
[00:24:00] subconscious but you feel what's called significance and if you feel significance you build trust
[00:24:09] if you're listening intently you're going to pick up on a lot of stuff that isn't said
[00:24:15] you're going to pick up on some facial expressions some body language some tonality some emphasis
[00:24:24] and after that you're going to be able to ask some incredibly brilliant questions now very often
[00:24:31] i've seen it a leader will ask a question but not be present for the answer which undermines
[00:24:39] the individual makes them feel a bit rubbish and they think don't trust you the leader who pays
[00:24:46] attention and then also makes reference to that conversation a few days later a few weeks later
[00:24:53] a few months later is definitely the person who you trust and you're going to work exceptionally
[00:24:59] hard for because they give you significance when i worked for the national trust years ago
[00:25:06] i remember the director general i was working late one night the director general came up to
[00:25:09] me which was a bit like oh my gosh and i remember her saying you know what why are you still here
[00:25:14] i'm doing this particular project but i need to leave a bit early tomorrow i've got going to see
[00:25:18] my dad he's in hospital thought nothing more of it she's so i wish you well hope everything's all right
[00:25:23] three months later when i saw her the next time because she was busy running the whole joint
[00:25:28] how is your dad you're the director general you remember that yeah and that you know that's a
[00:25:38] long time ago martin that's like i'm gonna say 25 years ago and i remember where i was stood
[00:25:44] i remember what she was wearing and i remember thinking i am gonna bust a gut for you because
[00:25:50] you have remembered not only my name the fact that my dad was in hospital what yeah that makes an
[00:25:58] extraordinary leader so my advice to young leaders is please listen please close your laptop
[00:26:05] please put your mobile phone away and pay attention because you will lead in a far more
[00:26:12] effective way and you'll feel great too well yeah because that just you retelling that story gave me
[00:26:21] goosebumps you know that kind of the the impact you can have as a leader on people's lives in what
[00:26:29] are seemingly innocuous interactions you know but they're so important because you are you're
[00:26:37] there for that for that person that's it and you know when it comes to talking about culture
[00:26:44] it's made up of all of those types of interactions that are happening around the
[00:26:51] organization it's just a wonderful wonderful wonderful story and makes you makes you think
[00:26:57] i think when if you you must have had this when you tell stories like that naturally people
[00:27:03] can relate to it but then also think yeah i've had a leader that made me feel that way
[00:27:10] and there's only a handful of them i've worked in a lot of places before i started working for
[00:27:14] myself at this moment in time seems quite rare but that means that those individuals just stand
[00:27:22] out above the crowd and i think that it is a simple act we have more distractions than ever
[00:27:33] and at that time there was an awful lot of work to do you know this woman was under incredible
[00:27:40] pressure from the membership from the trustees from all sorts of all sorts of stakeholders
[00:27:45] within the within the charity and yet in that moment that's what it is in that moment you know
[00:27:52] there's that saying isn't there that's credited to to Maya Angelou which is about people remember
[00:27:58] won't remember what you said but they'll remember how you made them feel and if we think about
[00:28:04] emotional contagion and the fact that how you are has a ripple effect and how the brain
[00:28:13] everyone's brains whether we will admit it or not we want to be noticed and we want significance we
[00:28:21] want to be of value we want somehow to be recognized in our own way and if you can give that to your
[00:28:29] peers and to your people and to your family and to your friends however that is it means that
[00:28:36] you create the type of space that means people trust you don't ever underestimate trust and i know that
[00:28:46] you and i both know that we're long in the truth but ultimately really don't underestimate trust
[00:28:53] because it will take you in all sorts of directions when people know you have integrity and that
[00:28:59] you are there for them this kind of very early on you mentioned about intuition and
[00:29:06] knowing and being able to feel the vibe of a room or and then it and then bring your own energy to
[00:29:13] that room and that that kind of sharing of your energy is it more of a challenge now
[00:29:22] for leaders because a lot of their teams are hybrid or purely working remotely is it more
[00:29:30] challenging which then lends itself to find really investing in this kind of area of leadership
[00:29:38] it's a really great question there are so many hugely effective remote first organizations
[00:29:48] and when you look at how they behave you can see how they are able to replicate almost
[00:29:56] the energy of being physically present so this is the these are the kind of things that they're
[00:30:00] doing the voice is an incredible instrument it's probably one of the few things that well apart
[00:30:09] from what i've about to contradict myself apart from AI of course that could that that that i'd
[00:30:15] have to change for how i think about that you know that that can replicate emotion as well you
[00:30:22] know written words fine but the voice what you emphasize your tonality the speeds the language
[00:30:29] you use everything comes across so leaders could consider leaving voice notes even more
[00:30:37] effective which is what i started to do with a couple of clients that we were working
[00:30:42] asynchronously because they that some of them were down in New Zealand and some of them were over
[00:30:46] in Portland Oregon i'd make little videos and i'd say didn't do it you know and this is what i'm
[00:30:53] going to do and this is how i've done it all right and so the energy was recorded and you could
[00:31:00] you can get it a certain you can get a certain amount can't you from how people are when
[00:31:04] you see their face so in the remote and hybrid environment i would really strongly encourage
[00:31:13] everyone not just leaders but everyone to use a multitude of media to communicate
[00:31:21] the other thing that is a massive massive benefit which i'm working with one client on this right
[00:31:26] now is i'm assuming the organizations teams within organizations have got things like team charters
[00:31:36] which means i know how you would prefer to be communicated with i know how you are in your
[00:31:44] best self as in what time of the day if you've got the best energy and i basically get a whole
[00:31:52] set of information from you so that i can be as effective as i can and i can adapt according to
[00:32:00] what you need because when you're in the office environment you can see people they're going
[00:32:05] to go off to get a coffee and they're going to be busy at their desk and you'll be able to see
[00:32:10] when they're when they're gone versus reflective versus doing something creative
[00:32:17] because you can't see them all the time it's difficult to know but you could ask
[00:32:23] and that's in the team charter and so that creates the blueprint for whatever better term on
[00:32:30] how it's best to get the best out of martin he's fantastic at 5 30 in the morning starts to
[00:32:37] dwindle off a little bit of one and then he's really creative at four but do not call him
[00:32:42] between four and five because that's when he's doing his incredible work and he doesn't want to
[00:32:48] be interrupted that's it you know actually that's pretty accurate that's because you've got a dog yeah
[00:32:56] and you just on that because i love the idea of the video and the voice note so there was a
[00:33:02] question in the community from someone who said i've moved teams and i'm now my team is made up
[00:33:08] predominantly of people that are working from home and our shifts are very different i can never get
[00:33:13] them all together and my recommendation was to do a video just hearing you talk about and kind of
[00:33:21] mirror you know miming that out made me think oh actually i missed a bit of advice and i wanted
[00:33:27] to think get what you think about this is my other bit of advice would be don't over produce it
[00:33:34] because i've seen videos that people have done to their team that they've obviously spent quite a bit
[00:33:39] of time they it feels a bit scripted edited they've edited it rather than just show up as yourself
[00:33:46] and if that means that you misspeak or say something funny and you laugh and go oh god i didn't mean that
[00:33:54] you know leave that in it's exactly true you know the more authentic again there's so many words
[00:34:01] i'm using here that i can't stand but i can't think of another word for it but there's something called
[00:34:06] the pratfall effect and the pratfall effect is let's see if i can get this right so there are
[00:34:12] there are two scenarios there's someone who walks up to the stage and gets their trophy
[00:34:18] and everyone's like oh yeah well done and then there's someone who walks up to the stage
[00:34:23] trips doesn't fall completely and hurt themselves but trips and you know that's but they laugh
[00:34:28] about it get their trophy they get down who does the audience like more the faller 100 percent
[00:34:38] and it's not that it's it's one of those comedy li Evans you know he's done it on purpose but
[00:34:44] it's natural people are more accepting when you're human and we also distrust if we think
[00:34:55] that something is too manicured and too perfect our brain is and i don't know which
[00:35:01] bit of the brain it is but we can spot a fake we can spot someone who isn't very often we can
[00:35:07] spot someone who isn't true to their to their word unless they're really brilliant at it they do
[00:35:13] all the time and you haven't known any difference so i do encourage people to make things a bit raw
[00:35:19] and a bit more themselves you know there there are going to be times i can imagine
[00:35:26] where they probably might not feel like they can be completely themselves because they might think
[00:35:30] oh i'm going to be really unprofessional or or what will people think of me but equally
[00:35:36] i do think sometimes people want me because i do mess up and i do go oh god don't they're good
[00:35:45] you know because i do we all make mistakes and even if you do mess your words up or whatever
[00:35:53] actually i'm just going to tell you another quick story sorry martin you've got me on a one here
[00:35:57] so just being to ted right ted is the biggest event in in education i think in the world so
[00:36:05] you fly over to vancouver it's a week long event a ted talk is like the career thing for your life
[00:36:14] and so you have these people who come on to the stage they've been practicing for six months no
[00:36:20] joke they've had a coach to help them they're representing their organization they're representing
[00:36:24] themselves there is a lot of pressure man there are two thousand people there's lighting
[00:36:29] there's sound there's screens wow you get the gist right when these guys mess their words up
[00:36:37] the crowd cheers and there was a lady who was talking about employee experience and she messed
[00:36:44] up a couple of times she actually got quite emotional and the crowd stood they gave her a standing
[00:36:50] evasion until she felt calm and then she smashed it what on earth i just felt emotional just then
[00:37:00] thinking about it because people are supportive of others honestly they really are and to see
[00:37:06] two thousand people cheering someone because they messed up incredible i i couldn't agree more and
[00:37:14] just hearing you talk about that instantly i think about you know i think it was a
[00:37:18] basalona olympic so 92 derrick redmond the 400 meter runner who like kind of got injured a hamstring or
[00:37:28] ankle and he started crying and his dad came on and like gave him a lift took him around and i just
[00:37:35] think you know that the whole stadium was behind it i still remember that vividly i have no idea
[00:37:43] who won isn't that interesting because the emotional potency was in your reaction to that moment of
[00:37:51] humanity yeah and so you know bringing it back to a video honestly believe me when i say that if you
[00:38:01] do if you haven't brushed your hair up to you if you do miss your words up if you do drop the
[00:38:08] computer and all of a sudden they're seeing the dog on the floor and then they see you again
[00:38:13] it's human and it's beautiful and honestly i really do think the majority of the really strong
[00:38:21] relationships i have in work especially is when someone is okay with not being perfect
[00:38:32] and there's a vulnerability and a courage to it and i think honestly there's there's no harm in
[00:38:40] it quite different if you're doing a serious pitch to a bunch of vc that might be slightly different
[00:38:47] but if it's an internal communication just just be yourself and you mentioned the key word there
[00:38:54] i think as well does vulnerability play a part is that one of the 12 kind of components of
[00:39:00] emotional intelligence it's not identified as a particular competency within the skill
[00:39:08] but interestingly when you are able to articulate how you feel that in itself
[00:39:17] does sometimes require courage and vulnerability if the individuals that you're speaking with
[00:39:24] are of the the type that it's not a common thing you there's a potential threat that it
[00:39:32] might be discomfort it might cause discomfort for the other person i think that's probably the
[00:39:39] best way that's probably the best way to describe it the other thing to mention is that so you've
[00:39:46] got emotional self-awareness the next kind of domain is emotional self-management then
[00:39:53] it's around about social intelligence so that's where empathy and organizational awareness sits
[00:40:00] and the final one is relationship management and in there are a whole bunch of things including
[00:40:06] inspirational leadership and most certainly when you think about all of those four domains
[00:40:16] it's possible that the most inspirational leaders are the ones that share stories
[00:40:24] about their experiences and very often those stories contain pieces of information
[00:40:31] that means they're they're opening up and they're being vulnerable and they're being courageous in
[00:40:38] sharing things that might not be deemed professional but it makes them more human
[00:40:44] and those four domains is it is it that if you want to become a really good emotional
[00:40:51] emotionally intelligent leader you start with self-awareness correct and how how would somebody
[00:40:58] go about that so it's very much a case of taking a moment to understand how you're feeling
[00:41:07] journaling you might also you might also invite more feedback i've got a funny relationship
[00:41:16] with feedback because i am of the opinion that people shouldn't be giving feedback
[00:41:25] they should be invited to offer it so those individuals who are keen to grow and keen to learn
[00:41:33] should be asking could you give me some feedback on that or what are your thoughts on this
[00:41:38] and so do that more often make it a natural thing that people will expect you to ask them
[00:41:47] could you could you tell me how that is and if you ask a number of people then you can take
[00:41:52] the average of what's being said because what we also have to remember is that while
[00:41:58] we ask people for their opinion it's their perception of what you're doing
[00:42:06] and that comes with all of their baggage so while they might give you a piece of feedback
[00:42:11] it might be very helpful to you but it might also include an agenda of theirs so the so just
[00:42:18] to recap if you ask for feedback and you ask a number of different personality types then you
[00:42:25] can build up a picture of how you're coming across because ultimately here's your intention
[00:42:32] of how you want to be and here's other people's experience of you amazing and it really when you
[00:42:40] think about the world of contact centres and how in the vast majority how prescribed it is and
[00:42:49] seen as a positive that we are going to monitor coach and feedback is a is a big part of that
[00:42:59] getting that relationship established so that it's it's asked for but also making sure that you are
[00:43:08] aware of your own you know the feedback I'm about to give how much of this is my perception
[00:43:14] how much of this is objective you know really then because I used to as I got more senior I
[00:43:22] really kind of zeroed in on this how effective are our coaches our team leaders because the power of
[00:43:30] the power that they hold in that relationship and through the vehicle of feedback is it's you know
[00:43:37] it's it can be amazing but it can also be if they're they're not great coaches and if they're
[00:43:42] not competent and sensitive to how they're doing it it actually do have the reverse effect
[00:43:50] than what we're hoping for yeah not just a case of oh yeah we do it they do it every day okay well
[00:43:57] what what is it like so you've reminded me um of something I briefly want to share which is
[00:44:04] using the skill of emotional intelligence doesn't mean that all of a sudden I'm going
[00:44:09] to be extra nice I'm not nice I'm not extra kind but I do have an ability to see what's going
[00:44:16] on and I can choose to adapt to that and so some people I speak to so this emotion tend to stuff right
[00:44:25] just bunch of soft skills well they are soft skills but actually when you think that people can earn
[00:44:31] a quarter of a million pound more than you when you don't have the skill and they're more likely
[00:44:36] to live longer than you not that soft is it first point second point is that you can be quite tough
[00:44:44] with emotional intelligence but you're doing it in a way that is connected with respect the person
[00:44:51] respects you and they're going to listen to you more because you have that ability to create the
[00:44:58] space that's safe if you're coaching and you're not specific in the feedback that you're giving
[00:45:07] if you're too vague if you're too woolly if you don't offer a depth explanation and also the
[00:45:14] invitation for the individual to work out how they might fix that rather than being told
[00:45:20] you're not doing a good job and I think that to your to your earlier point why are you
[00:45:27] coaching are you coaching because you're not hitting the numbers are you coaching because
[00:45:32] you want that individual to be their best version of themselves are you coaching them because you can
[00:45:38] see every individual here has massive potential or are you coaching because you're managing out
[00:45:44] so the coach itself has to have an understanding of them being of service to the individuals
[00:45:56] and that in itself the word coach to me means someone who's got your back who's there to support you
[00:46:04] who knows your best assets that's going to bring you to that highest level is everyone knowing that
[00:46:11] is everyone behaving that way because if you're not either learn how to behave that way or get
[00:46:16] another job let's I would love I'm I'm gonna just throw this out there that you're so knowledgeable
[00:46:24] uh and engaging around this I would love to do a part two because I feel like we're
[00:46:28] we're coming to the end we've hardly we've hardly scratched the services being so illuminating
[00:46:33] would you be happy to do another yes one quite soon great let's just end then if I can ask you with
[00:46:41] people that are listening where would you start on this journey how would I start and say
[00:46:47] I want to pick I want to do the first bit I want to become self-aware what are the best
[00:46:51] resources other than yourself or can they come to yourself whatever it may be
[00:46:56] well how do I start this journey so one thing you could do is you could you could buy a book
[00:47:03] which is called Emotion Intelligence 2.0 it's really easy read it's really it's quite a small
[00:47:09] book and it has a code in the back take that code and answer a bunch of questions and what that
[00:47:17] those questions will give you is a measure of how emotionally intelligent you are so that you
[00:47:22] have a baseline of what you're actually doing it also gives you some tailored exercises for you to
[00:47:29] consider doing some of the things I've already said but plus a load of other stuff to help you
[00:47:34] build your emotional intelligence um it's built around the same Goldman model that I've just
[00:47:40] described but the 12 competencies so if you are able to buy that book I think it's Travis
[00:47:46] Radbury is his name he's got a code so I can't remember I'll give you the link so firstly buy
[00:47:51] that book take the take the test read the book pick out some things maybe two just two tasks
[00:47:59] that you will build into and become a habit two things and that might be journaling for two
[00:48:06] minutes every day or it might be taking a breath when you get a rather aggressive or annoying text
[00:48:17] message or email but just do two things for three weeks and see how you start to change
[00:48:24] buy the book take the test start journaling and do two things that too much to ask that's quite a
[00:48:29] lot no it's not and also if they're not already follow you on LinkedIn follow your
[00:48:36] content engage engage with you because I've I've definitely benefited from from knowing you and
[00:48:42] reading your stuff and hearing you talk and just from this this podcast which is now part one of two
[00:48:49] that's very kind that's very kind of you to say thank you I mean because I see such huge potential
[00:48:55] in this skill and I have honestly I've witnessed people change how they are and better themselves
[00:49:04] I'm a big cheerleader for it so yeah let's do part two soon yeah
[00:49:10] Roger thank you so much for coming on and I will see you for part two thanks so much see you soon