In this episode I am joined once again by the brilliant Lee Houghton for a conversation that gets to the heart of what makes a team a real team, and what gets in the way.
They explore why "team" is consistently the number one thing people say brings them happiness at work, the difference between a group that works and one that truly performs, and why artificial harmony might be the biggest silent killer of team culture.
From belonging and connection to healthy conflict, watermelon reporting, and the danger of mistaking agreement for high performance, this episode is packed with honest reflections, practical insights, and more than a few great stories.
Lee also introduces his BOSS framework — Behaviours Observed Set Standards — and why, as leaders, everything we do (and don't do) is setting the standard for those around us.
If you lead a team, are part of one, or simply care about creating environments where people can do their best work, this one's for you.
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap. This episode is brought to you by Alvaria CX leading the way on proactive customer outreach, and also better outsourcing, an outsourcer based in the UK proud to do things different, and also my good friends at the forum. Right now on with the show.
[00:00:30] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap. I'm very pleased to once again be joined by the amazing, the wonderful Lee Horton. Mr. Teasdale, thank you very much for inviting me back on. It's an absolute pleasure again to be chatting with you. Thank you.
[00:00:54] And just so we're not being exclusive, our giggles were because despite talking to Lee every day for nearly the last, I don't know how long, I sometimes mispronounce his surname. So I was practicing before we hit record. Horton. Horton. Yeah, I think that's the most proper way that's ever been said. So thank you. Thank you. And now it's recorded as well. So yes. Yes. There you go.
[00:01:25] Yeah, no, it's good. It means a lot. So thank you. I think, can you still add the pronunciation to LinkedIn? Or is that feature gone, but it's still there? Because you could put that in. Yeah. I think it's still there, but has gone. So I think if you did it, you've got it. If you didn't, you don't, I think. But I will check after this actually. Yeah, please do. Let them report back. Yeah. You will. Thank you.
[00:01:46] So, and if you can still record it, I want you to record it for me. I'll give you my login details and you can record it for me. I think that'd be amazing. Yeah. We could start something off where we all just record each other's. Yeah. Yeah. It's dangerous, but yes. Very, very. Yeah. That's how we roll. Yeah, let's do it.
[00:02:10] So, um, so we are going to talk about teams, what, what team is, why it's important. How do you build it? Our own, our own experiences. And this came about, um, I was sharing with you on the phone, um, about visiting. I went to visit a lovely contact center, great people. And we were doing a sessions. We were just doing some sessions for about 50 agents.
[00:02:38] And one of the things I asked them to do all split into six different groups was come together and list the three things that bring them happiness, make them enjoy work. And then the three things and three things that drain your, your energy.
[00:02:57] And I was just sharing with you that for every single group, all six for the first or second, predominantly the first people just wrote team. And then I asked everyone what the groups to sort of present back to the others. And everyone was talking, you know, that, that was shared more passionately than the other two items for each, for each group.
[00:03:23] Um, but everyone said, I love being in my team. My team's great. My team's the reason I come in. I look forward to it. Um, they help me when things get tough. Um, they're my friends, every, every single one. And there might be people listening going, well, yeah, so what? But I just thought it was a really interesting reminder. Um, nothing.
[00:03:48] And this is absolutely not a reflection of the contact center I was in because I think this is the reality. None of the groups were saying customers helping customers, because I think that's a given. And once you've been there more than a couple of weeks, it's, it, it's just the thing that you do. Um, there weren't people putting down, there weren't groups that were putting down growth development.
[00:04:16] Um, and these were high, the, this center has a great culture and they have high tenured, they have a generally high tenured, uh, agent sort of population. Um, and I just thought, isn't that fascinating? You know, in terms of, I was obviously thinking about the team leader community and how to, um, create content for the community around. There's nothing more important than this. But then I thought, oh, wait a minute.
[00:04:45] I know someone who is kind of an expert on this. Unfortunately they weren't available. Um, so I thought, I know I'll give my mate a ring. See what he's doing. I'm joking. Of course. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to fill in. Uh, but, but like, so we have a very similar experience.
[00:05:09] Um, so when we, um, uh, initially engage an organization, we create something called a big picture and we bring a lot of people together. And we ask them, um, to share the things that they'd love to lose, love to keep and love to have. Um, both physical and non-physical to try to understand what it's like to be there and stuff. And what are some of the, I guess the hygiene factors that maybe if we can improve and everybody can see that we can move forward together to develop a stronger team.
[00:05:36] And when you do the lose and the have, it's maybe poor communication. It's, uh, some of the IT systems and things like that. But the keep all of the time, uh, or I would say 90% of the time is the team. People love the team. Those are the, that's where they've got the strongest amount of connection.
[00:05:58] So when you shared it on the phone, um, uh, earlier is like, that's a, it mirrors our experience working with people. And, and I just, I wonder whether, whether, whether there's now so much homework in that's taking place, what impact that has on it as well.
[00:06:18] But there also, just as, as another point, when I'm, when we're talking about, about teams, people understand the word team, but what they're looking for within a team is, is often different. So one of the, um, one of the conversations I have with teams is at the start, I'll go around the room and I'll say, give us an example of a, of a non-work related high performing team. And they'll, they'll show various different, uh, uh, examples.
[00:06:47] And, and that then, so like they'll go sports teams or family or, but what that does is it gives me a reference point for what they are looking for within a team. So people who pick sports teams, it's 10 tends to be a strong leadership and the results and that type of stuff. People who pick family, it's level of communication and trust. Everybody understands the word team, but the thing that make it up, um, is, is often different for, for each person. But the importance of teams and connection is, is key. I think.
[00:07:17] It is. And it's really interesting. You mentioned there about homeworking. Um, this contact center have been in a hybrid kind of pattern like most, I think, since the, since the pandemic. So going on for five, five years plus. And I think that's testament to the strength of teams that they still feel this way when either half two thirds of their time.
[00:07:46] They're not working alongside each other in a, in a physical sense, because it is tougher. And it did make me, it did make me wonder whether those teams that are built entirely remotely now, how, you know, do they have to work extra hard to create that sense of that sense of team?
[00:08:06] Because I, I've talked often about my career getting on a bit now, you know, I can't remember, I can't remember, I can't remember, I can't remember individual performances, recognition, accolade. What I can remember is the teams that I was in the part, you know, how that, how that felt, the fun that we had, the friendships that were born out of it.
[00:08:35] And then when, when I do recollect kind of either projects or moving companies or doing something significant that happened, the reference and the, the language that I tend to think and use are around being, being part of a team.
[00:08:54] And then in my personal life, teams, very, very important to me, both from a sporting sense, a family, but also other kind of community, community groups, you know, and it's, um, I wonder like you guys, you guys will focus on it, but do you find for the companies that you're working with, uh, there isn't stuff that's being done by design to foster it. It just sort of happens organically.
[00:09:24] Um, yes and no, I think you absolutely have to be intentional about creating the space to build connection. So it's, it's a connection challenge. Um, and so you've got to create space for people to come together. So if you're working, um, in a physical location, you can have the, uh, the water cooler conversations. You can have the kitchen conversations. You can go for a walk at your lunch. And so connection is easier to, uh, to, to build through the day.
[00:09:52] And you can go out, uh, maybe after Friday when you finish or whatever it is, you can build those, that human connection. Um, when you work in a hybrid or remote, you have to be more intentional, um, about it. You might have, um, a, uh, a specific conversation, one-to-ones, all of this stuff that needs, needs to happen.
[00:10:14] Um, but so I think it's too, it can, it can happen organically and naturally, but only if the spaces are there to allow it physically. It's easier remote, it's more difficult, but you just have to be more intentional about what is it about team? That's so important to you. Well, like what feelings does it give you mine? Great question.
[00:10:41] I don't know whether it's because I, I've associated it with, you know, for me, it's always been for me, certainly before work, it was football. I've been playing football since I could walk and that just sense of belonging. I think people working together, um, is a, is such a wonderful, wonderful thing.
[00:11:02] And I tend to orientate towards groups, movements, feeling like it's, um, you know, not necessarily even your people. I've been in teams where you don't necessarily, you don't have to get along with everyone, but you feel connected because you're all part of something bigger than, than yourself.
[00:11:24] And you can come, you know, you'll, you come into that group in various different, of course, sometimes we're happy. Sometimes we're sad. Sometimes we're buzzing. Sometimes we're moody, whatever it may be. It doesn't matter. You know, the door isn't shut because you're not, you're not, you're not clown. You're not the clown guy today. Oh, you're not cracking jokes. Well, get out and come back when you are.
[00:11:52] It's just that you are part of that, that team. Um, and I think as well, you mentioned something there that like connection, the thing that's kept me in the contact center industry so long is just, it's so cliche. It made me feel a little bit sick in my mouth then just what I was about to say. But, um, it is, it is people. People are fascinating, funny, amazing, amazing sort of backstories that you don't know.
[00:12:21] So, you know, you can sit next to someone and work alongside them and go through stuff together and feel like you really know them. And you can still find out new things years, years and years later. Like everyone has multiple stories and, um, we're all kind of, we will share in the world at the same time. But too often we're, we're all too busy.
[00:12:43] And you make such a good point, I think, around the intentional bit is our, our senior leaders curating time for people to just come together, get to know each other. You could help them with other activities or conversations that they could have. Doesn't necessarily need to be themed or, um, pizza or anything like that.
[00:13:09] Um, but it can just be, it's, you know, it's very important that you as a, as a leader start to allow people to build connections within the team so that there, there is, there, there's more horizontal connections than there is vertical. You know, that, that kind of thing I think is really important. And I, I, I remember taking over a team as a contact center manager.
[00:13:35] We had about 150 people all sat on one huge floor and I did nothing for the first 10 days. I think, um, didn't go to any projects or meetings. All I did was every day come in and just made sure I spoke to everyone, not even necessarily, you know, my intention was not to talk about work. If people wanted to talk about it, they could.
[00:13:58] And I'm only talking a few minutes with, with each one, but I, you know, I wanted to introduce myself, but I also wanted to try and get who, who this, this large team was. And one of the directors said, what have you been doing for two weeks? All I've seen is you out there, out there with your team.
[00:14:22] And at the time I wasn't, I wasn't as confident as I am now in that it was the right thing to do. And I felt a bit, I felt a bit kind of, Oh God, I'm in trouble here. I've only just started. When's my, when's my probation? Um, but I, I said, look, you know, I think it's really, really important that they, they know who I am even at a surface level, but I want to know who this, this team are.
[00:14:48] And it was kind of, it, it didn't land with this senior leader. I think he saw it as a bit of a waste of time, but it paid off. You know, that was, that was just the start of me becoming part of that team, but also that team knowing that I, I thought it was important to know who they were and where, where they were at.
[00:15:14] And those sorts of things have, have stuck with me for forever. I think. I love that. I love that. You've said so much in that, in those two answers, in the two answers. So first of all, when you said about what was being, what was important for yourself, being part of a team, it was being part of something bigger than, than yourself and being part of that and being able to contribute, um, to that.
[00:15:37] And then when you talk, when you talk about, um, your approach, you are very much a people person and the relationship and the connection and the strength of relationship is really important to you. And you're, you demonstrate that through your actions then. And by going around speaking to each person, uh, and you, you mentioned the word belonging earlier on.
[00:15:59] And so what, what I hear when, when you speak is to get your sense of belonging, you've got to have that, you've got to have the relationship with, with the, with the people around you. And I think like it's about, we need to understand everybody that is within our team. So it takes activities and actions like you've just learned to find the things that we can find in common to then we can build that sense of belonging and find the things that we've got, um, to, uh, to, to develop our relationships.
[00:16:26] Not everybody is as comfortable as, as yourself and going around and talking, but it absolutely starts with just creating those, those conversations in whatever way we can. We have to be intentional about it if we want to be a team, but to be a team, we need to understand every member of the team as well and what they are looking for. I might have shared with you in, in the past, um, when I do the, the, give us a non-work related example of a high performing team.
[00:16:55] There's been a few examples where there's been people that are getting on, um, personally, but not professionally because the reference points are so different. One person is looking for, I use heads, hearts, and hands all the time. And so one person is, is hands, handsy, motivated, sort of physical, um, results. One person might be heart motivated, which is all about emotion and feeling. And you've got to create the space to allow people to understand, okay, that person will engage me on an emotional level.
[00:17:24] That person engaged with me on a, on a physical, tangible level, and then create the space and conversations to do that. Find the things that we've got in common, but work together to call out these differences, call out the things that we're looking for, and then create that environment, um, together. And that's what, yeah, that's why it is always comes down to intention.
[00:17:46] And we're, we live in such a busy, busy world currently that we're, we're demanding results. We want to, um, that we need to, and in the industry, like the, it's, it's a cost focused industry. And so that's where the, a lot of the focus has got to be, but it should, we should, if we made it a connection focused industry, then the cost I believe will take care of itself because everybody will have that.
[00:18:15] And I like you saying, but the thing that's important for you for a team, it will have that, that sense of something bigger than ourselves that we can all, all focus on, uh, as well. So, yeah, so I think in your answers, they were, they were beautiful answers, mine. Thank you very much. You, you do, you make several good points there as well.
[00:18:34] One of them I think is just, I've often had to reassure as I progressed and had leaders working for me, team leaders, that I think sometimes you have to reassure people. You don't have to, you don't have to feel that confident about doing something like I did. For example, there's, you can be introverted, detail, detail orientated, a bit, you know, quiet and still foster an amazing team spirit, you know, esprit de corps.
[00:19:04] What, what does that mean? It means that, um, we have shared moments that are either intentional or you're going through something. You know, we, I mentioned the pandemic, I genuinely felt that brought people together, like ever increasing groups. We were all in something together.
[00:19:28] We were all experiencing something at times, you know, especially initially really worrying. Um, and we all went through something like that together, but it was a shared moment. So those kind of shared moments, um, create a sense of team. I've always found as well that, um, you certainly in the contact center world, you have to name it.
[00:19:56] You have to, um, come together and say, like, who are we? And I never really, I'd always, I'd always want to change. A lot of the time there was no T, there was no name that came from the team. It was always, this is what we are in the org chart. This is the name, this is the name of our team. No matter how, no matter how big that team was and it had smaller, smaller teams in it. I was like, no, that's not, that's never been for me.
[00:20:26] You need, you need a name. You know, we, you need a name, you need some other little things that, that go with it. Um, you know, I, I, I'm sure I've shared this with you, but we, I always, we had five Oh, one of our teams, we had five Oh one, which was my cost center for this team. And then I would always try and do different things with them. I showed them this video that you can find on YouTube.
[00:20:54] Um, it's a bit kind of, I did get feedback. It was very sort of sport win, but it was called who am I? I am a champion. And it's a high school, American high school, American football coach talking to his team before going out to have a match. So I made these little business cards that had five Oh one on the back. And then W a I dash I a AC.
[00:21:22] And I was like, this is our identity handed them out to, um, by that point, about 200, 200 people. And it must've been about 10 years latest. One of the team just sent me a picture of his wallet and the card was, the card was still in there because it had grown, it had grown legs after we showed the video, got the cards, talked about what it meant to be part of five Oh one.
[00:21:49] And I know, and all W a, you had to sort of spell it out what it meant. And this is who we are. We're going to try and be the best we can. And we're supportive of each other. Then it grew legs. Then people took it on, referenced it, talked about it in their outsider work. And for, for this guy to send me this picture, you know, 10 plus years later, I was like, that's cool. That is cool.
[00:22:18] I mean, it does say a lot about him as an individual though, as well, doesn't it? And then in his wallet. Um, but I think that is really good that like he's held onto that identity, hasn't he? He's, and it's meant something to him to be, to be able to share. Oh, and you sparked a thought when you were talking then as well, like we live in, uh, organizations that are just a collection of team of teams. And often when we think about team, it's us as a leader and our direct reports.
[00:22:46] That's the only team we think about, but actually what about the peer who sits next to us in the, in the, in the team leader meeting or the senior leader who sits next to us, uh, as well. And so when we're talking about creating teams, we need to consider not just those that work with us on a day to day basis, but horizontal as well, because organizations are a collection
[00:23:10] of teams that need to work together, which is really important, but often not considered. A hundred percent agree with that. A hundred percent. That's why I think using your organization as the community center at the center of the community and then putting on other groups is really important.
[00:23:33] So that could be different groups based on, uh, you know, minority groups. It could be, you know, causes, it could be shared hobbies. I think it's a really good sign of a contact center. If you say to them, like, what other social groups have you, have you got? They should be loads. There should be loads. So we've got a cycling group, we've got a LGBTQ plus I group. We've got this group. We've got that group.
[00:24:03] Um, and, and it's the, it's the contact center that's become the source of those groups that then when to your point, when they're kind of like, Oh, I know this person because we play table tennis together, or I know this person because we're in the book club or, um, things like that. Again, it's just an other, it creates this much more cohesive entity based on the other
[00:24:32] groups that, that exist or, um, where I was when I was last employed, we always did some physical challenge and associated fundraising around it that drew the team from all the different parts of the company and then we'll go off and do the three peaks or, or something like that. And that was amazing. That was amazing.
[00:24:56] Cause you would be in a, in a mini bus drive into, drive into Scotland with people you didn't, you'd seen them. You knew what they looked like. You might not know their name, but spend 24 hours climbing three mountains with people. You really get to know them, you know, and that, and that will stand the test of time forever. You know? And I think that's really, really heartwarming. Absolutely.
[00:25:25] It's like, and like you said, stands the test of time. And I think that's the biggest, um, legacy a leader can, can, can leave behind the strength of feeling that people have got for each other because you've created that, that, that environment to do. So if we just, if we flip the script, just, um, just a little, like, how do you know, or what are your signals or what are the, the signs for you that a team is not a team? What are the things that the, if you were to observe a team?
[00:25:54] So, cause, and, and the reason why I think this is an important question is because there's a lot of leaders who probably believe their team is a team, but there'll be things that we have seen observed that maybe suggest that it's not a team or the pretending to be a team. So what are the signals that you look for or have observed that, that suggests that? Great question. Straight away.
[00:26:21] I kind of just thought of really, really good teams like develop that they've, they've got, they've developed their own language, you know, in jokes, the relationships that they have are really comfortable so that, you know, you could, the little groups within the group, you'd say, oh, those two are always together. And that would be, and everyone would sort of smile because they know, and they've, they've
[00:26:50] lived together in that, in that time. So I'd say definitely you, I think you can observe the, um, the energy, the vibe, the language that's used, um, the comfort with which people orientate around each other. There's a, there's a, there's a level of comfort that I think you can, you can see.
[00:27:15] It's interesting to think about how that manifests itself in the hybrid world. But again, I think if you were observing like a team's channel that was dedicated just to check-ins and chat and how are you and what you're having for dinner tonight, um, or last night, um, you would be able to observe a team through how they were writing, whether they
[00:27:42] were a good team or not, or whether, whether they kind of had those connections. Cause I think you would always get somebody as well. Let's say the team's got eight people and there's seven people in and out of chat. I know one of them, two of them would check in on the eighth person that hadn't responded. Are you busy? Or you, you know, you're okay. What's going on? You know, and it's that kind of, um, they understand who they are.
[00:28:13] What about if a team never argues, is that a good team or not a good team? It depends. It, to your earlier point about, um, for different people, they're going to answer differently, I guess, even within that team. Um, cause if the, and again, I can't help myself, but think about sport.
[00:28:42] I played for a very good team and there were arguments all the time, all of the time, because we were all so obsessed with winning. Um, and those are, those arguments never, never kind of lasted or there was no link.
[00:29:05] There was no bad blood afterwards, but there were a lot of arguments, but for the majority of teams I've been in, I think a healthy level of disagreement is a good sign that you can have. Have, cause the whole point is we're saying you're comfortable in a good team because you are stepping into an environment where you can be yourself.
[00:29:31] So you should be able to challenge and feel comfortable doing it and not feel like it's, you're going to be ostracized, dealt with harshly or break connections. Um, we, we, we, we're assuming everyone's reasonable in this scenario. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think a health, a healthy level of disagreement is important.
[00:29:54] I think the thing that probably changes the intensity of that is what's important to the group. Like it, is it, do you, are you part of a team where it is win at all costs? There's our sales target, um, call capture target trophy we're going for. It could be anything. If you are part of a team that that is the be all and end all, it's going to change.
[00:30:24] It's going to set the mood for most types of interactions, isn't it? It absolutely is. Yeah. And, and, and the reason why I asked the question is because I think a lot of leaders, um, maybe mistake agreement for connection and high performance.
[00:30:42] But I think it's absolutely, I think it may in a lot of instances be masking the real opportunity of high performance, like failure, conflict, challenge, and problems are the most positive things you can see in a team. If the team are agreed on the destination that they're trying to get to.
[00:31:04] Um, but if you've not got an agreed destination and everybody's not bought into it, then those four, four words are maybe not positive because it's about the individual and stuff then.
[00:31:14] And, and so like my worry is that there's a lot of leaders out there that believe because the team's getting on, um, that actually it's a high performing team, but really maybe the, the, the masking how they are, what they're genuinely feeling and thinking. And, and, and to come back to your point, like it's not a safe environment. They're not speaking up. They're not sharing how they're genuinely feeling.
[00:31:42] And really true high performance is exactly like you say, you can air the challenges, frustrations, conflict, because it's not personal. It's just for the betterment of the team getting to wherever it is that they're trying to get to. You, do you know that one of the biggest, the biggest things that I think is detrimental to team building and therefore performance is artificial harmony.
[00:32:11] Which is what you are talking about to a T, um, and it'd be good to pick your brains on the extent to which the most senior person in that team in the room. Um, I I'm, I'm thinking of my own experiences where I got very, very frustrated with the artificial harmony that existed in part of a senior leadership team.
[00:32:38] I was part of, and everyone was nice. Everyone was friendly. We all got on well personally, but, uh, you could feel it. You could feel it like a gas coming into the room where we might, I would think it would be healthier to disagree about things and disagree with the direction we were heading.
[00:33:02] But often the most senior or the couple of the most senior people in the room could, could kind of just stop, stop that, stop that kind of murmuring of discontent. That actually, if you'd have allowed that fire to burn, could have got rid of the gas, could have really moved us forward. But it was all very emperor's new clothes. Oh, okay.
[00:33:30] The leader is, is, is off on one and he's telling us, uh, to all be quiet and all agree and just, just get on with it. And I, I, and it was all done pleasantly. That's the, that's the thing. And I think, you know, I found that entirely, entirely frustrating. And I would often, I look back now at some of the ways I behaved.
[00:33:55] Um, I was intentionally disruptive, but it was born out of, it was born out of frustration. And I think there must've been a better, definitely better ways that I could have handled it, but I'll just sort of throw my toys out the cart. This is ridiculous. Yeah.
[00:34:14] Yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you and I, and, and I think that's where this, this, um, artificial harmony, that's what it creates because people are, have got to hold things in and then they don't feel safe to contribute. Um, those, those things. So it looks like teamwork. It looks like everything's going well, but under the surface, it's not, and that's, this is why we've got to be really intentional about the environments we're creating as leaders. We need to speak last.
[00:34:44] So we don't bias the rest of the conversation. We need to provide space for, for everybody to share those thoughts. We need to ask different questions as well. Maybe something along the lines of, um, what have you, what have you thought, but not said? And what, and like, just to try to get people to share the things that they're thinking, but not saying. So we can start to uncover some of those things. And then when they do share some of these things, um, not, don't shut it down because then, then nobody else will step forward.
[00:35:13] We need to make it really safe to, for people to share what the, what the thinking that is, is teamwork. And I remember writing an article a couple of years ago now, and the title was just because your team works doesn't mean you've got teamwork. And so sometimes the measures and the outputs suggest we have teamwork, but really the behaviors that sit within the team is not genuine teamwork.
[00:35:39] I'm a hundred percent behind that because the output masks so much. Now, if you are a high performing sales organization, everyone's like, everything must be good. And nobody wants to rock the boat because it's working. Why do you even need to disturb and ask any, or, you know, any of these questions at all? Because what we're doing is, is, is working.
[00:36:07] And I find that really, really interesting. Like I was talking to doing a session with a group of, I would say they were no longer first line managers. They're all the next, you know, middle manager or above. And it was a group that were drawn from three different geographical locations, all doing, all responsible for different departments and, and that kind of thing.
[00:36:36] And all I asked at the start was, do you consider yourself a team? This, this group. And the answer emphatically was no, but also we, we don't need to be, you know, we don't need to be a team was very, there were variations of that. And, you know, trying to be, uh, the friend, their voice of the friendly voice of challenge.
[00:37:04] I was like, so you're all working on 12 different things. Are you, there's no, there's no like common, common goal here or things that you would like to see in all of your different, different areas. I just found it fascinating. And one of the, but genuinely one of the main reasons was they never came together as a group like that, unless the big bosses were there to talk to them about something.
[00:37:33] And I found that fascinating. I found that fascinating. And each of these people were competent, experienced, lovely people leading probably good teams. I know the culture is good. Um, but that group did not consider themselves a team at all. Hmm. Yeah. I think it's a really important question to ask. Do, do we need to be a team or are we happy just to be in a group of individuals?
[00:37:58] And dependent upon the, um, environment and the, where we're trying to get to the, the answer may be different. But if you're the senior leaders within an organization and you are not a team and you see yourselves as a group of individuals protecting your own function or, um, uh, uh, director, then you're going to create silos within the rest of the organization. Because that's the language, that's where your metrics are going to be and all, and all of that stuff.
[00:38:27] And so we have to really understand the team of teams thing within organizations, get everybody pointing in the same direction. When you started your answer, uh, when you talk about metrics and stuff. And I was thinking about water, watermelon reporting. And I think I've mentioned this to you before, but like watermelon reporting is where it looks green on the outside, but scratch the surface a little bit and it's red.
[00:38:53] And, and I see so many dashboards and reports where they have to be green, even though it's not really green. And then some people might use ambiguity. So they might use amber in between because, well, I can't really say it's red or I don't want to really say it's green. So we'll just make it amber. Um, and just so we, cause we know we'll not get asked a difficult question. No, that's not a high performing team.
[00:39:20] It's again, it's this, this, this artificial harmony. And there's sort of, there's little clues that are being left all the time in different teams. Everything being green, um, everybody getting on that actually looks like a team, sounds like a team, but it's absolutely not a team or the best team it could be.
[00:39:42] For you then, how, how the same question you asked me earlier, how do you know what a good team looks like? Sounds like behaves like, um, healthy conflict. I think is, um, one of the, one of the main things. So they don't shy away from it. Um, share of voice as well is something.
[00:40:06] So if, when I'm observing a meeting, um, if I can't tell who the leader is from that meeting, then that's not a bad meeting because there's a share of voice. And it's, and it's, um, everybody's contribution is, is counting. So a couple of things there. Um, if the dashboards are not all red or not, sorry, not all green. And so, um, that we're doing it.
[00:40:31] Well, another thing as well is when we are reviewing the actions in a meeting, um, if it sounds like the last time that these actions were spoke about with the last meeting. And it's like, oh, we're refreshing people's memories from the last meeting. That's not a good meeting because people have, oh, and that's not a good team because people haven't taken the actions and then gone and been, um, accountable for delivering them. And then we're just coming back and, and, and we're doing it, um, again.
[00:41:00] So I think there's a, we want people to take ownership. We want people to deliver on actions. And, and, and I think so a few things, let me summarize the, not everything being green, people delivering against the actions and healthy conflict would be three things that you can observe in any meeting. You can, you can observe a meeting and you can see these things.
[00:41:24] One, one other thing as well is the, the conversations that happen, are they, are they personable or are they process? And if the, if, if it's all pure process, where's the opportunity to connect? And, and I think if we can connect at the start, reflect at the end, or if we can just make sure there is some opportunity to connect, then, then that's a, a stronger meeting. But yeah, those, those four things I would say.
[00:41:54] What would you say then? Um, I once was, unfortunately, my team were located right outside one of the, I think he was our sales director outside his office. And when he came out, the first thing he would look at was a big plasma above our, above our desks that, that, that showed our performance.
[00:42:20] And he, first of all, asked me what some of the colors meant alongside both my team's activity. But then on the other side of the, the other half of the screen was our current performance. Um, weirdly it was, if I remember rightly, orange was a good color for the team's activity. Purple was a bad color because it meant everyone was in rap and not talking to customers. Um, and then on the dashboards, it was the usual, uh, red, amber, green.
[00:42:50] And he would come out and be very busy always going off to different meetings, but he would look up. If he didn't like the colors, he would, like, this was old school, chew me out, shout at me in front of everyone. It was very unpleasant. Um, but once I realized that he didn't necessarily stop or have time to stop to scrutinize it, we had a particularly good day and a good moment.
[00:43:18] So I, I took a screenshot and put the screenshot instead of the live feed. So I just had the screenshot up there for weeks of a, of a really good, a really good, a good day. And one of my team went, that is well, that hasn't changed. That is well out of date. And I was like, yeah, I know. Don't just. Because of the, the behavior, um, of, of the leader.
[00:43:44] I'm doing a talk, um, later this week and it's called culture is the real boss. And boss stands for behaviors, observed, set standards. And so because his behaviors were that, that was the standard. And because of that was a standard, that's your then behavior that then, that then you've got to do to survive, um, as well. And you can use that story if you want. Yeah, I might do. Uh, Martin, I'll start with Martin said.
[00:44:12] No, you don't need, you can even just say, you know, co-opt it. It's fine. You love an acronym, don't you? You've got so many. Or is it abbreviation? Which one is it? No, no, it's an, it's absolutely an acronym. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I do. I do. So because there's a couple of, one is because that's how I'm wired. And so for me to remember stuff, I've got to create something that, um, but I think this one is my best one.
[00:44:38] Um, so behaviors, observed, set standards. I think there's like, it's relatively easy for people to understand actually. Like, and part of this, part of this talk that I'm, that I'm doing, um, tomorrow is I've got this fact, this five things. Um, so one of them is I'm just going to ask people in the room. I think there's about 60, 70 people in the room. And I'm going to say, um, how many people have canceled a one-to-one really late? And then just put your hands up on that. Uh, how many people have walked past a piece of rubbish on the floor?
[00:45:08] Put your hand up. If, if not. All right. How many people have, um, oh, there's, there's three of us as well. Uh, how many people have asked for input, but never used it? Uh, how many people have, you get the idea. Yeah. Yeah. And, and what I'm trying, what I'm trying to do is find five common things that most people have done. And then I'm going to go, right. Okay. If you've done one of those things, stick your hand up. And then hopefully the majority of the room have stuck the hand up.
[00:45:37] And I'll go, well, that your culture is not your values on the wall. It's not your strategy document. It's the hands that are in the room. And, and I think we, as leaders, we have got, um, such a huge responsibility to be conscious of our behaviors every single day, because that's the thing that's setting the standards.
[00:45:59] And so when we talk about intention and creating high performing teams, it starts with our behaviors as a leader. I think it's, um, it's fundamental. Very insightful, mate. Very insightful.
[00:46:13] Because I often think about the definition of being the leader and the kind of the quick thinking around that is vocal, visible, set in the, set in the direction, say, you know, this is where we're going, praise, all of that kind of stuff.
[00:46:33] But I think a lot of the time you're more the kind of the custodian or the caretaker of the space that people can just come in and get on with their, again, I'm going to the community center, come in and get on with their activities and really have a good time and enjoy being around each other.
[00:46:56] And now and again, you might need to step in and, um, you know, be the administrator of, or the peacekeeper or whatever. You might just need to tweak here and there, but actually it's the, that's how I've always, that's how I've always seen it. I would have loved you to have been around and observed some of my team meetings.
[00:47:17] You'd probably think, you know, I, that old concept of higher people who are better than you, you'd have probably observed, God, they're picking on that guy a bit, aren't they? Because, you know, it would be, I'd get a lot of, I'd get a lot of pride in that thinking, God, my team are smart as, this is great. Um, but you've been intentional about that.
[00:47:43] You've been intentional about, about that, about creating that environment, creating the spaces, um, and, and providing that opportunity for everybody else to flourish. Um, and one thing that's, uh, like comes across in absolutely everything you do is your, um, lack of ego. Like it's never about you.
[00:48:07] And, but then if we think about a lot of leaders in situ, what's, what's made them successful is the things that they hold onto so tightly. Um, and so sometimes it's difficult for them to get out of their own way. And, and, and, and it is the, it is this challenge. And, and so if people are behaving the way that they behaved at the, when they were growing up in their, in their careers, then that's success.
[00:48:33] But the things we're talking about here are getting people to work better together and they need to be more Martin, don't they? God, no. Uh, what a scary thought. Um, do you, do you think that we have this, I know the, I know the whole concept of tribes, um, but our innate need to be part of something more than ourselves.
[00:48:59] If you think about me and you, we're both solo business owners of micro businesses, like microscopic, like you'd need a huge microscope to see. Yeah. Um, but we both orientate towards or have created little teams, little groups. Um, I know for me personally, I, I miss that.
[00:49:27] Uh, I, I miss, I miss the energy and the dynamics of whether it's verbal, nonverbal, just that kind of, you know, being in amongst the team. And I think a lot of what we do, yes, there is a, there's a work output. Like we do the frogging, we do, we do lots of other things, which is really, really helpful from a productive point of view.
[00:49:54] But I think the benefits I certainly feel are much more than that. Because it is, it is like a substitute for not being, not being in a team. You know, like when, when the wheels are falling off and you're in a team, you kind of all work together to put them back on. When the wheels are falling off and you're a solo business owner now, luckily there's kind of, I can put up the bat, the frog signal, the bat signal.
[00:50:21] And, and, you know, speak to you, speak to people that we kind of hang out with. Is that, is that something that's been important, important to you? Have you missed being part of a team? Would you always feel like you're in a team anyway? I love people. So, in fact, like I listened to something, I can't remember when it was, a while ago now.
[00:50:46] And it said something along the lines of, if I gave you a quid and you gave me a quid, we've exchanged a quid. Okay. And it's still, it's still exactly the same value it was before. And, but the beauty of, of teamwork and people working together is if I ask you a question and you ask me a question, we both exchanged one question. Um, but the number of thoughts that it's created, the ideas that it's generated, the actions that may follow from that have compounded.
[00:51:16] And so actually, and that's, and that's what I think the beautiful part of, of people coming together is, um, it's not a transaction of a pound for a pound. It's, uh, an opportunity to create a, I'm going to call it a mastermind. So they're coming together of, of, of, of collective, of collective brains. And if the environment is right, the question is right, then it all compounds. And that's what I love.
[00:51:43] I love the, the opportunity that's created by people coming together. Um, so, so yeah, team is important. People are important, but it's, it's just that, that collective coming together. That's what I love. That's what I love. And can that be for a short time? Does it need to be, you know, can it be for a purpose that you can still create this sense of a team? Yeah.
[00:52:12] Until the restraining order kicks in and then I'm no longer part of a mentality. Uh, yeah, I think it can, like if, if there is a common purpose. So like before, um, when, when I'm coaching people, um, depending on the context, I'll, I'll introduce it. It's another acronym. It's nice. I see. It, and, and so what I'll suggest is before a meeting or before a coaching conversation, or, um, I will say, okay, let's, what's your intention?
[00:52:41] What's your, um, connection builder and what's the environment going to be to ensure that you get, get where you are. And I think if we, if we can, so if it is for a short time, we need to have a clear intention, we need to have a clear way to build connection and we need to create the right environment and do those three things. And then, then you get this mastermind, the people coming together and it's powerful. So yeah, I think it can be a short period of time. I think you can a hundred percent. You can get people together and go, right, you're the blue team. You're the yellow team. Um, what happens?
[00:53:10] They form a team instantly. You're like, right, let's get them. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. So remind us, remind us before we head off, um, we will be back doing something else soon. I'm sure. But reminders of boss. What is boss? Yeah. So like boss stands for behaviors, observed sets, standards, everything we're doing is all about the behaviors and whether,
[00:53:38] whether we like it or not as leaders, our behaviors are the things that people are seeing. And so that's then sets the standard, um, for everything else. And so I think if we can remember that, then maybe we may turn up, show up slightly differently and, and, and encourage people, not just through our words, but through our actions and behaviors as well. Love it. Love it. Perfect timing. We will be back rambling again. I'm sure. Um, next time in a week. Yeah.
[00:54:07] I meant that in a positive way. Next time somebody else falls out. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Honestly, absolute, uh, absolute pleasure as always to talk to you in a recorded or a non-recorded form of mine. Thank you, my friend. And, um, thank you all for listening. Uh, you can, I'm, I can guarantee we'll be doing this, uh, again soon. So Lee Porter. Thank you. Thank you very much. You as well. Bye.