David Holmes - Director at SSE and author of Leading the Line comes on to chat about the book.
[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap.
[00:00:03] I'm joined by a good friend of mine and a friend of the industry known to many.
[00:00:09] That's David Holmes, the sales director at SSE, an author of Leading the Line.
[00:00:15] This is a book that I got, I think as soon as it came out.
[00:00:19] Well, David, you sent me a copy and I'm really looking forward to jumping in
[00:00:24] and finding out all about it.
[00:00:26] But thanks so much for coming back on again, my friend.
[00:00:30] Yeah, that's what I was getting. Heart Trip and Mum, you know, keep on the ball.
[00:00:34] Yeah, I need to get the ball set up the same alongside the picture of Peter's
[00:00:38] guy, I'll be there for him a bit.
[00:00:39] Now, great to be back and never an opportunity to talk about the book
[00:00:42] and all things contact, you know?
[00:00:45] Yeah, well, which is something that we love amongst other subjects.
[00:00:48] But yeah, you're right.
[00:00:49] Third appearance and always so interesting to talk to you and your and your backstory
[00:00:57] for those that are watching.
[00:00:58] I'm holding up the book now, Leading the Line.
[00:01:01] And I just want to start with why?
[00:01:03] Why did you write it?
[00:01:05] How long has it been a kind of idea in your head?
[00:01:09] Yeah, so you're the one of the beta copies.
[00:01:11] They use here's a good technical term.
[00:01:13] That's as good as it gets technical ways today, Mum.
[00:01:15] But the way was quite easy.
[00:01:17] I just wanted to pass something on, you know, I think.
[00:01:20] Really privileged to have worked in some of the companies that I've got.
[00:01:23] You know, some things people use that language and it turns a little bit
[00:01:26] a wee bit cliche, but I've worked with brilliant people.
[00:01:29] I've worked in brilliant businesses.
[00:01:31] But then that has been real challenges.
[00:01:33] There's been some not so good moments.
[00:01:35] But overall, the thing that always strikes me, man,
[00:01:38] because I feel like team leader level
[00:01:40] with some amazing people that they're trying to make a difference to people's lives.
[00:01:43] And I was really fortunate as I went through my journey
[00:01:46] and my career progression, that people put their arm around me
[00:01:49] and shared their wisdom or just even the company I was with
[00:01:52] at any given time put me through something that advanced my learning
[00:01:55] and understanding.
[00:01:56] But as times went on and it became a more senior leader
[00:01:59] and a bit of an active way, more senior leaders across different businesses.
[00:02:02] The thing that struck me, man, is it almost feels like we're not investing
[00:02:05] as much as we used to.
[00:02:07] You know, it feels more of a taken for granted type environment
[00:02:10] if you're a leader all of a sudden, you know it.
[00:02:12] And it's a bloody hard job, right?
[00:02:14] I think that for me, the job's not getting any easier.
[00:02:17] I look at what we ask of team leaders, team managers, whatever terminology
[00:02:21] we want to use for the role.
[00:02:22] But first line leaders, typically we teams are 12 or 14.
[00:02:27] Community of the job, you've got the admin side,
[00:02:29] you've got the leading side, you've got the results side of it in your life.
[00:02:32] And I thought, what can I do?
[00:02:34] Can I add a bit of value?
[00:02:35] And I think some of that sprung from the conversations we'd had.
[00:02:39] But also when I first left, I had about a time in my hand
[00:02:42] and I sort of floated the idea, I stopped at taking notes.
[00:02:45] And it's like all good things that you come back and you go back and add in.
[00:02:49] So it was a real labour of love.
[00:02:51] And I just wanted to get out before Christmas.
[00:02:53] I think it procrastinated a wee bit.
[00:02:55] I'd sent that from there since I've been taking back feedback.
[00:02:58] And sometimes you just get killed, a plaster mum.
[00:03:00] Yes.
[00:03:01] There, you know, you...
[00:03:02] I think I wrote the other day in LinkedIn, when is it good enough?
[00:03:07] And the truth is, I think there's still one type on it.
[00:03:10] There's a couple of format issues in the book.
[00:03:13] But I'm not going to worry about that.
[00:03:14] The context is what's important, not how it looks aesthetically.
[00:03:18] You know, and I think if I was worried about how it looks aesthetically,
[00:03:21] I would have had a hundred for publishers.
[00:03:22] And then I'm sure they would have made it look nicer.
[00:03:25] But again, I would have lost control.
[00:03:26] I would have lost my own voice and I wanted that sound like me.
[00:03:30] I love that it's been...
[00:03:31] It's borne out of partly your own experiences
[00:03:36] and kind of people sharing with you
[00:03:38] and you wanting to share to as wide an audience as possible.
[00:03:42] But also recognising that team leaders that we all admit are the...
[00:03:48] The or one of the most important kind of strutters in our contact-centred,
[00:03:55] you know, geological makeup.
[00:03:58] But the job is definitely getting harder, definitely getting harder.
[00:04:01] And it was hard enough anyway back when we did it, you know,
[00:04:04] you're thrust into a position where you're suddenly responsible
[00:04:08] for 10 plus human beings and everything that entails.
[00:04:12] So I'm really, really glad you've written it.
[00:04:16] And I love what you said, doing it rather than kind of...
[00:04:20] Because if we waited for things to be perfect,
[00:04:23] we wouldn't do anything, would we?
[00:04:25] No, not in my household.
[00:04:27] And like I think...
[00:04:31] There are times where your standards can be high
[00:04:33] and there's a good reason for that.
[00:04:34] You know, I think that there are times where detail becomes super important,
[00:04:38] particularly when it's customers or other people's money
[00:04:41] or things that are critical to people's lives.
[00:04:44] But when you're writing a book, that's not the case.
[00:04:46] When you're writing a book, it's what's the narrative?
[00:04:48] What's the message?
[00:04:49] And actually if it looks alright, is that okay?
[00:04:53] And I think it is.
[00:04:54] You know, I used to scribble a lot on books
[00:04:57] and I'm still looking at hard copy kind of guy
[00:04:59] as much as I'll get this put in a kindle in the next week or so
[00:05:02] and it will get done.
[00:05:04] I've made that commitment to myself to do that.
[00:05:06] I hate playing a bit with maledunas and stuff like that, but I'll...
[00:05:09] I'm going to put it on kindle as well as hard copy.
[00:05:11] I like the hard copy more because it'll take me notice.
[00:05:14] You know, I've got books in my boot shelf up there
[00:05:16] and I still like to pop them out again going,
[00:05:19] I've read that somewhere and it's relative to what I'm doing just...
[00:05:23] And I like the physicality of that modern
[00:05:24] which is why I've done it that way
[00:05:25] and I've left wee space for people to scribble on.
[00:05:28] But look, for me, it's so much learning out there, right?
[00:05:34] So you've got people coming on your show regularly
[00:05:36] you're just doing this wealth and experience
[00:05:38] and the opportunities I lead them now
[00:05:40] is to soak it up equally.
[00:05:42] There's a lot of self-help books,
[00:05:43] there's a lot of very high level stuff
[00:05:45] that people have made millions
[00:05:46] and they're an entrepreneur like us or we've done that.
[00:05:49] And that's great.
[00:05:50] That's absolutely brilliant.
[00:05:51] And then I really like people with Gladwell
[00:05:54] and the economics guys and stuff like that
[00:05:57] because I'm interested in social economics.
[00:06:00] There's some things to help to distill that
[00:06:02] into a practical, pragmatic steps
[00:06:03] you can take as a team leader,
[00:06:05] particularly if you're new to it,
[00:06:07] particularly your point earlier,
[00:06:10] trust in it, that's a good way to say it is
[00:06:12] it kind of feels like somebody flings you
[00:06:13] in front of the box, isn't it?
[00:06:15] And like I remember taking the role on it first
[00:06:17] and I was breaking it.
[00:06:18] You know, I was like,
[00:06:20] well, if I get this wrong with,
[00:06:21] I say the wrong thing
[00:06:22] and I'm gilgir saying the wrong thing now
[00:06:24] never mind then.
[00:06:25] So ultimately giving a little bit back
[00:06:28] is probably the way I look at it.
[00:06:30] I don't think you and I will be speaking
[00:06:32] in a year's time and you say,
[00:06:34] I said, David, you made your first million
[00:06:35] and you're not the million.
[00:06:37] And this is what means.
[00:06:38] Thanks for remembering me.
[00:06:39] Yeah, I really appreciate your support
[00:06:41] in the journey, Mal.
[00:06:43] I kind of don't see it that way.
[00:06:44] You know, the kind of thing is
[00:06:46] if I'm a contactee of direct
[00:06:49] and I'm thinking what can I do?
[00:06:50] I've got 15 team leaders,
[00:06:52] what can I do easy then?
[00:06:53] There's 500,
[00:06:55] buy some books, spend 200, 300 quid
[00:06:58] on a couple of books
[00:06:59] that guys can put a cut in shape.
[00:07:00] You know, they call people everybody
[00:07:01] unless there's something you want to do
[00:07:03] and I've worked with leaders
[00:07:04] and they used to give you a book at Christmas.
[00:07:06] Yeah.
[00:07:07] They would think about how you look,
[00:07:08] maybe sometimes they read personal memories.
[00:07:10] I always still like that.
[00:07:11] And I still do that now and again
[00:07:13] with people I work with
[00:07:14] just thinking, I think this suit,
[00:07:15] she can out-read it, hear the look.
[00:07:17] Sometimes they come back,
[00:07:18] Matt, I'm going, that was awful.
[00:07:20] I can't believe you recommended that.
[00:07:22] But quite more often than not,
[00:07:23] it's not so and it's aligned
[00:07:24] to their leadership style.
[00:07:25] So that's kind of what I'm going for.
[00:07:27] It's something that can be
[00:07:28] handed out or handed along
[00:07:30] or buy it as an aspiring leader
[00:07:32] and go, what would help me be good
[00:07:35] and I've sort of built it into two parts.
[00:07:36] One is the work-centric piece.
[00:07:39] And the second is a little bit my story
[00:07:41] about how I went from, I guess,
[00:07:43] building co-authors, to leading teams.
[00:07:46] And then that helped me in Selah and MacKree
[00:07:48] because I would always say, Martin,
[00:07:50] there is no better apprenticeship
[00:07:51] than being a team leader in contact centers.
[00:07:54] And you have to deal with everything.
[00:07:55] You have to look at your nerves.
[00:07:57] You have to look at people.
[00:07:59] You have to look at customer
[00:08:00] and you have to look at process.
[00:08:03] Those four things alone are massive.
[00:08:05] And if you can learn them, there's not much you can do.
[00:08:07] And in between it, if you already
[00:08:09] have put in a personal skill,
[00:08:11] we can't prove them.
[00:08:12] You can't snook it.
[00:08:13] Right, because you need to know
[00:08:15] how to deal with people and handle really good.
[00:08:18] And the people who succeed best
[00:08:19] and I've seen loads of them
[00:08:20] and you know loads of them
[00:08:21] are doing really well in running businesses now
[00:08:23] because they've used those skills to go on.
[00:08:26] So I tried to distill that into the book a little bit.
[00:08:29] Well, let's just go into that then
[00:08:31] in terms of the how the book is structured
[00:08:35] and what people can expect when they get it
[00:08:39] and open the pages.
[00:08:40] How does it flow?
[00:08:42] So I can't set the scene,
[00:08:44] the first chapter for me
[00:08:46] outside the four words are in about
[00:08:48] just why it all, a wee bit I've seen it.
[00:08:50] And I'm quite open.
[00:08:52] I don't see myself as an author or a love writing.
[00:08:55] You know, it's a pastime that I sort of kind of took up
[00:08:59] during the pandemic.
[00:09:00] I was that and walking.
[00:09:02] I became the forest comforter walking
[00:09:04] which I've not done as much recently,
[00:09:06] but the writing I still do travel a lot, man.
[00:09:09] So I like to just jot down ideas and thoughts
[00:09:11] and some of that becomes something.
[00:09:13] Some sometimes it doesn't.
[00:09:15] So can I set the tone a bit?
[00:09:17] Look, if you're looking for something that runs
[00:09:20] in some sort of kind of really dynamic way
[00:09:22] then that's kind of not me.
[00:09:24] Also say I'm trying to speak in my most authentic voice.
[00:09:27] If you met me in the pub in the other pine
[00:09:29] then it's fairly sometimes I can swear
[00:09:32] like I say on the shores leave, not always.
[00:09:34] But so there's a couple of kind of real time expressions
[00:09:37] that I would use or think about
[00:09:39] without harming or helping anybody through.
[00:09:41] It's just the language of Jews.
[00:09:42] I think swearing in Scotland
[00:09:44] is almost like a comma sometimes.
[00:09:46] We put that in, but I think the story's natural, right?
[00:09:50] So I start very simply about
[00:09:52] when you take the role,
[00:09:54] beliefs really important.
[00:09:55] You know, and you and I both know
[00:09:57] and we'll spoke to lots of people.
[00:09:59] And we've all had components of the times
[00:10:01] where you post a syndrome or am I good enough
[00:10:04] for this kind of do this?
[00:10:05] And I just talk about it.
[00:10:07] I talk about the fact that generally
[00:10:09] if you became a team leader
[00:10:10] or you're just a con lead
[00:10:11] into the Roe-Wish often happens
[00:10:13] somebody thought you were good enough.
[00:10:16] Like quite often that's because you were good at the job
[00:10:18] and somebody goes, oh, I'll give you a crack.
[00:10:20] And also I worked in a space
[00:10:22] where somebody's good at the job
[00:10:23] and can't lead because they don't have the components.
[00:10:26] So talk a little bit about that.
[00:10:28] But also talk about the importance of checking in with,
[00:10:32] you know, you believe some important to your success,
[00:10:34] I believe, well, then getting people to help you
[00:10:36] and making sure you've got allies and a network
[00:10:39] that you can lean on as part of bleep.
[00:10:42] And I think that even when you're having a tough day
[00:10:46] you've got to kind of believe in yourself.
[00:10:47] You've got to believe you can make a difference.
[00:10:48] And someone just asked me a little bit,
[00:10:50] it's still my favorite quote,
[00:10:52] which is the Henry Baldwin
[00:10:53] whether you believe you can or you can't, you're right.
[00:10:56] Yeah.
[00:10:57] And it's such a great quote.
[00:10:58] And I often think about it as,
[00:11:00] I put in the book that I played chess and I play guitar
[00:11:02] but I've never really committed to it, right?
[00:11:05] Never really just went,
[00:11:07] I'm going to do this for two years and see how good I get.
[00:11:10] You know, chess was early in school.
[00:11:13] I was playing that and I think we'd get a task there.
[00:11:15] I'm quite aggressive in my nature
[00:11:17] in terms of trying to learn something to win quite late.
[00:11:19] We believe it's desperate, you know?
[00:11:20] You've got to commit to that.
[00:11:21] You've got to come in and go, yeah, I can do this.
[00:11:24] And if you're ever feeling that you can't go
[00:11:26] and check about why you can,
[00:11:28] then confirm it.
[00:11:29] If you come in every day and don't believe you can,
[00:11:31] the chances are you're not going to have a good time.
[00:11:34] You're not going to enjoy it either,
[00:11:35] man, I think.
[00:11:37] Being some joy at what you do is important.
[00:11:39] So I kind of go there
[00:11:40] and then it sort of branches into really practical stuff.
[00:11:43] The next one's planning, right?
[00:11:45] So you've got to get a wrap on the go.
[00:11:47] You've got the leader community.
[00:11:50] There'll be days when you think
[00:11:50] I'm nailing this plan, I'm nailing it.
[00:11:53] And there'll be other days you're like,
[00:11:54] oh my God, there'll be stuff coming through all directions.
[00:11:57] And I love this explanation.
[00:11:58] I think you see it out there a wee bit more in,
[00:12:00] and some day I'll work with you,
[00:12:01] I respect the Lord told me it's called eating the frog
[00:12:04] each day, getting up and just sort of tackling
[00:12:07] the thing you least like to do.
[00:12:09] And by God, that helps your planning, doesn't it?
[00:12:12] Yeah.
[00:12:12] But I kind of went back the way
[00:12:14] as I wrote the book, man,
[00:12:16] I thought why have I forgotten
[00:12:18] some of the basics I learned?
[00:12:20] And I worked at DirectWine Insurance
[00:12:22] and I'm always grateful for my time there in particular
[00:12:24] because that's where I got a lot of nailing
[00:12:26] from a team leader perspective.
[00:12:28] They sent me in a quarter at the time
[00:12:30] they had the filing facts.
[00:12:31] Yeah, good business.
[00:12:32] So I'm showing my age, you know,
[00:12:33] I think even though it wasn't quite with the early 90s,
[00:12:36] it was late 90s, but the reality is
[00:12:39] you took the time to write down,
[00:12:41] you prioritise your date stamp, you put it in.
[00:12:43] Obviously we do a lot of that stuff electronically now.
[00:12:46] And I've got back into that habit,
[00:12:48] man, I really organised my week
[00:12:49] so that every week that I come in,
[00:12:52] I make sure I do two or three things
[00:12:54] that are important to me
[00:12:55] that make me feel like I've achieved something
[00:12:57] that make me feel like we're attaining stuff.
[00:13:00] So it doesn't matter to me if you're a team leader
[00:13:02] or you're a director or manager, director or CEO,
[00:13:05] if you allow other people to dictate your time
[00:13:07] and plan for you, you're not planning.
[00:13:10] So I go through that a little bit as well
[00:13:12] and then sort of moves any coach himself
[00:13:13] to be on all the chapters.
[00:13:15] And the first sort of section,
[00:13:17] if you like, maybe about some of the chapters
[00:13:21] are all about practical, pragmatic stuff
[00:13:23] you can do and build up from.
[00:13:25] That's right.
[00:13:27] To me, if you do the first three believe planning
[00:13:30] and coaching yourself to be on,
[00:13:31] as you talk a wee bit more about,
[00:13:34] you give yourself a platform for success.
[00:13:37] A lot of people go in because they get confused
[00:13:40] about what's important
[00:13:41] and trying to please other people.
[00:13:43] You need a little bit of a selfish streak
[00:13:45] in the riches, why I'd say buy the book.
[00:13:48] You know that's a selfish investment for me, Marliss.
[00:13:51] That's an investment by you on your,
[00:13:54] but also if I'm a leader of a team,
[00:13:57] if I've gone and I've been in that position
[00:13:59] when I've had 60 team leaders,
[00:14:00] do you know what I mean?
[00:14:01] Spending a 10 of the needs of 18 leaders
[00:14:03] is nothing in a big contact center budget.
[00:14:06] But tell you what, you'll get more than that
[00:14:08] in your return, you'll get 10, 15, 20 times your return.
[00:14:11] So it's thinking like that as well.
[00:14:12] Invest in yourself or invest in your people
[00:14:15] and you'll get a home job.
[00:14:16] I love that.
[00:14:17] If we just spend a moment on the thing you said about belief
[00:14:22] and I think it's a really interesting way to start
[00:14:25] because certainly in my experience
[00:14:29] of managing team leaders
[00:14:30] and my own experience as a team leader,
[00:14:33] at best, especially early on,
[00:14:35] it was 50-50 whether I thought I could,
[00:14:38] whether I was gonna sink or swim.
[00:14:41] As I've got older
[00:14:43] and been able to spend a lot more time with team leaders,
[00:14:46] I've actually, I think there's benefits
[00:14:48] in what you've said around understanding your beliefs
[00:14:52] and understanding like be comfortable with them
[00:14:55] and then explore the part that says,
[00:14:57] I don't think I can do it.
[00:14:59] Okay, why?
[00:15:01] Why do you have that?
[00:15:03] Why do you have that thought?
[00:15:05] And then the answer are either gonna be things
[00:15:09] that someone can help you with
[00:15:11] or they're gonna be things that you can focus on.
[00:15:14] And then just by doing them,
[00:15:16] you're gonna increase your overall belief
[00:15:20] that you can do the job.
[00:15:22] But I really like to start with that
[00:15:23] and then of course planning,
[00:15:25] even right now every day in the team leader community,
[00:15:29] that's everyone's biggest challenge, right?
[00:15:30] It's the challenge.
[00:15:32] And another thing you said actually made me smile was
[00:15:36] the grounding you get from being a team leader,
[00:15:40] I say now as a business owner,
[00:15:43] it's that period of being a team leader
[00:15:46] that has prepared me for now
[00:15:48] more than any other role
[00:15:50] because the other roles as you get more senior
[00:15:52] are laying on different things like strategy or whatever
[00:15:56] but actually being able to juggle
[00:15:58] what seems like an impossible amount of tasks
[00:16:03] and dropping them at times and still going on.
[00:16:06] And it's the planning part
[00:16:09] that if you don't get that bit right,
[00:16:11] no matter how talented you are,
[00:16:13] how much of a people person you are,
[00:16:15] you'll never be as successful as you can be.
[00:16:18] So those two parts to start I think are really clever.
[00:16:22] Yeah, I mean, at the very beginning of the belief part
[00:16:26] I put in do I think I can do this?
[00:16:28] And then as the answer is I think I can,
[00:16:31] you don't need to be 100% certain.
[00:16:33] Yeah.
[00:16:34] And I think that senior leaders should be better now
[00:16:38] than they were as well.
[00:16:39] And that's what a criticism of people in the past.
[00:16:42] I think there are more intelligence out there,
[00:16:45] there's more support and understanding
[00:16:48] if you want it as a senior leader,
[00:16:50] you know, and to check in with it.
[00:16:51] And I think the thing that I'm still working on
[00:16:54] even at turning 50 this year,
[00:16:56] rather than still trying to bring myself
[00:16:58] as tailoring the fact that I'm an emotive
[00:17:03] and passionate guy about what I do.
[00:17:05] I care about people a lot,
[00:17:07] but I need to bring balance there.
[00:17:08] And my natural process is to use the frustration
[00:17:12] that I might have and figuring solutions.
[00:17:14] And I am typically solution orientating,
[00:17:17] but reflection time is something
[00:17:18] that I benefit from these days.
[00:17:20] I think that one of the things
[00:17:21] that I talk about in the book as well
[00:17:22] is okay, speak to your line manager
[00:17:25] and say I need a bit of help.
[00:17:26] I need you to give me a bit of space for this
[00:17:28] because you've asked me for 400 things
[00:17:30] you talk about the task.
[00:17:32] Now I believe in it compared to your languages,
[00:17:34] I believe I can do those things,
[00:17:36] but I need to understand what's your priority
[00:17:38] so I can prioritize.
[00:17:39] And that's why I think that a leaf planning
[00:17:42] and self-development stroke coaching
[00:17:44] come one in the same, right?
[00:17:46] Because if you've got a team of 12
[00:17:48] that each of the safeties are,
[00:17:49] for you've got a mix of experience.
[00:17:51] We've all been there,
[00:17:52] we used some of the experienced people
[00:17:53] and were team helpers.
[00:17:56] You get that Māori of supporting your team,
[00:17:59] getting a bit of learning for yourself,
[00:18:01] hitting a result which helps your line manager
[00:18:03] and it becomes all there.
[00:18:04] Whereas if you're just busy,
[00:18:06] you're just a busy, you don't get them
[00:18:07] but beliefs sort of kind of really important.
[00:18:11] And I think the other back is
[00:18:12] when I'm doing this, is it going okay?
[00:18:14] I remember asking myself that
[00:18:16] when I first ran a team
[00:18:17] and I think the benefit is
[00:18:19] when I was first a team leader,
[00:18:20] I wasn't a team leader in service
[00:18:22] and I've worked in both service and sales.
[00:18:24] Like firstly they'll say job,
[00:18:25] opportunity, names and sales.
[00:18:27] So from that perspective
[00:18:28] you can get a very clear result
[00:18:29] based on orientation,
[00:18:31] so you can track on there.
[00:18:33] I think service operations now
[00:18:35] are more result-orientated than they've ever been.
[00:18:37] You know, you've typically got four or five KPIs in there
[00:18:41] and I talk about KPIs in the book
[00:18:43] just for any senior leader out there having 20 KPIs.
[00:18:46] That's not a KPI, that's just a list of targets, right?
[00:18:49] KPIs, keyword is key
[00:18:51] and the performance indicators, right?
[00:18:52] We need to use them carefully senior leaders
[00:18:54] and wisely so that we don't overload team leaders.
[00:18:57] But I think one of the bits that I like
[00:18:59] even if I wrote it myself,
[00:19:01] are people respondent to me, you know?
[00:19:04] Because the hard part is that we believe
[00:19:05] because if you're doing everything
[00:19:06] and people are like, yeah, I'm not doing that.
[00:19:09] Then you need to go away and check in
[00:19:10] and use the support mechanism around you.
[00:19:13] Quite often, particularly early in my career
[00:19:15] I had a few people that I could talk to,
[00:19:17] well then don't underestimate your value
[00:19:19] at any capacity, at any level in the role
[00:19:21] because we all need somebody to bring something off.
[00:19:24] We need a safe space for it.
[00:19:26] And I think the community within contact
[00:19:29] and customer operations, in my experience
[00:19:31] always been a really healthy one.
[00:19:32] Yeah, you've got something that can all the stuff
[00:19:34] that goes on at every workplace and all that.
[00:19:36] But generally speaking, you're in it together
[00:19:38] and sometimes it can feel like,
[00:19:41] and I think even when I started
[00:19:42] I was 300, call right in the queue every day.
[00:19:44] That probably feels more like for call centers now as well.
[00:19:47] But he went through a period
[00:19:49] where everybody sort of stabilised all the contacts
[00:19:51] where it's post pandemic,
[00:19:52] a lot of calls in those are struggling still.
[00:19:55] But when I started in telephone sales,
[00:19:57] he came in in the morning and the little red light
[00:19:59] came on and it was on until he left.
[00:20:01] And I enjoyed that as a sales person
[00:20:03] and then as a team of the men
[00:20:04] you could make more money and sell more stuff.
[00:20:06] But customers don't like him,
[00:20:08] it's not the right thing to do.
[00:20:10] But as a team leader that
[00:20:11] and that puts pressure on you.
[00:20:13] So you need to have other people around the body
[00:20:15] you can lean on, express it and do it there.
[00:20:18] But I can't stress enough
[00:20:20] and that's why it comes second in the book.
[00:20:22] How important it is as a first-looking leader.
[00:20:24] And even now for me to plan properly,
[00:20:27] I've never had a three or a five or a 10 year plan.
[00:20:29] I don't mean that man.
[00:20:30] I mean plan your week and your months ahead.
[00:20:33] And when you've got six things in your day,
[00:20:35] if you've achieved five, that's still success.
[00:20:38] Yeah.
[00:20:38] Yeah.
[00:20:39] Go on any of the day just think
[00:20:40] I'm going to let everybody else tell me what doesn't work.
[00:20:43] You'll not enjoy the job and you'll not be successful.
[00:20:46] No.
[00:20:47] And lovely point there as well around
[00:20:51] how do I know I'm doing well?
[00:20:53] Like you,
[00:20:55] my first team leader role was in sales.
[00:20:59] And I found that interesting,
[00:21:02] especially afterwards that you could have a team
[00:21:07] that was above target and everyone think everything's great
[00:21:11] where actually it might not have been equally
[00:21:15] you could have a team where they're not at target
[00:21:19] quite your way away.
[00:21:20] But actually teams doing well.
[00:21:22] People are progressing.
[00:21:23] People are being coached.
[00:21:24] People are loving what you're doing as a team leader.
[00:21:28] And again, I think these are the nuance behind the role
[00:21:32] around context is important.
[00:21:35] You get given a team of brand new people.
[00:21:38] You can't be using stats that are applying
[00:21:42] to an experience group as a measure
[00:21:45] as to how well you're doing.
[00:21:46] It's kind of like how well do I think I'm doing?
[00:21:48] How well do I feel I'm doing?
[00:21:50] Like you said.
[00:21:51] And you said the next one then is self-development
[00:21:55] and coaching, right?
[00:21:58] And what do you bring out in that section?
[00:22:02] So just one of the things I talk about in planning as well
[00:22:05] because at LinkedIn,
[00:22:06] because I had to learn this,
[00:22:07] it's a learned skill for me.
[00:22:10] And that's what I'm talking about the guitar
[00:22:11] and you know,
[00:22:12] because you see it in the other room
[00:22:14] I've got the guitars.
[00:22:15] They're all elements now, Martin.
[00:22:17] But I think I lack discipline in me as neat.
[00:22:21] And my nature lacks discipline.
[00:22:23] So I've got to learn that behavior
[00:22:24] and things that are important to me like work, for example.
[00:22:27] So as a team leader,
[00:22:28] I had to develop discipline in my planning approach
[00:22:31] and execute that way.
[00:22:33] And I talk about executing, delivering execution.
[00:22:36] Key thing with execution is keeping it simple
[00:22:38] and something that you can follow.
[00:22:39] And I found that format and coaching as well.
[00:22:42] I don't know, there's probably four or five really big
[00:22:45] sort of coaching formats out there,
[00:22:47] every grow and things like that.
[00:22:48] Right?
[00:22:49] But I like to simplify a very easy thing
[00:22:52] both personally and for the team.
[00:22:54] To your point, you could have 12 people on the team
[00:22:56] and you might go from a one size for it's all coaching.
[00:22:58] I'm going to try this with Rooks.
[00:22:59] I worked on Ouija over here,
[00:23:01] he's going to work on Han over here.
[00:23:03] How you get to,
[00:23:04] and she's like,
[00:23:04] does the work for me?
[00:23:05] She's like, oh, what do I do?
[00:23:07] So you need to be able to adapt
[00:23:09] and understand people
[00:23:11] and respect their approach and learning styles.
[00:23:14] But for me, it was delivering coaching.
[00:23:16] That's the first bit.
[00:23:17] Might not all have been the best coaching man.
[00:23:20] And from that, I'm developing as well.
[00:23:22] Then I'm getting people to sit in and they're going,
[00:23:24] can you give me feedback?
[00:23:25] Then that can feel a little bit cheap
[00:23:28] when you start like to go and ask somebody,
[00:23:30] do you mind observing me?
[00:23:32] Do you mind giving me some feedback
[00:23:33] on what I'm doing or asking your team?
[00:23:35] Because God,
[00:23:36] I told you they come back
[00:23:37] and give you feedback,
[00:23:38] you don't want to hear.
[00:23:39] You know?
[00:23:40] And again, I think I've talked to Bari before,
[00:23:41] but for me, there's two things.
[00:23:43] One's affirmation, which is you're doing a good job
[00:23:45] and this is why your context is really powerful.
[00:23:49] And the other's just feedback.
[00:23:50] Feedback, my man by definition is negative.
[00:23:52] You hear people say that was good feedback.
[00:23:54] No, feedback's constructive
[00:23:56] or it's got a negative connotation.
[00:23:57] Here's the things you can do.
[00:23:59] But you can use that if it's really constructive.
[00:24:01] You know, you can use it to develop and get better
[00:24:03] and don't get me wrong.
[00:24:04] When I was starting my week,
[00:24:06] I was sort of like a bit of term sheet
[00:24:08] that turned a lot of courses.
[00:24:09] And I always said yes.
[00:24:11] And that's the bit that I talk about
[00:24:12] in the beginning of development.
[00:24:14] If you've got the band with,
[00:24:15] if you get the opportunity
[00:24:16] and you're asked to do anything,
[00:24:19] answers should always be yes.
[00:24:21] Yeah.
[00:24:22] You might not be brilliant at it.
[00:24:23] You might not enjoy it,
[00:24:24] but you'll have the experience to it.
[00:24:26] So I think even way back then,
[00:24:29] there was a time when I was sitting on a course
[00:24:31] and my time in LBS
[00:24:32] and it was a presenting course
[00:24:34] and it was an actor that took it.
[00:24:35] And I still get that young gal
[00:24:37] who's Scottish first for me
[00:24:38] and they're going, well, what have you been in?
[00:24:40] It was a fact matter, right?
[00:24:42] The guys here in parks, I'm learning on me,
[00:24:44] but I just stood back in the white boy departure towards it.
[00:24:48] He was brilliant.
[00:24:49] You see, when I got to present,
[00:24:52] I'm not worried about it.
[00:24:56] Typically because I'm Scottish,
[00:24:57] I'll try and slow down my voice.
[00:24:59] But when I get excited,
[00:25:01] I get busy and that's another example
[00:25:03] of little nuances that are not academic.
[00:25:06] They're not asses times
[00:25:07] but they're little subtle nuances
[00:25:09] that you can add to your own approach.
[00:25:11] But one of the things that I talk about
[00:25:13] and planning is build time in each week for you.
[00:25:17] Now, depending on where you're in your career
[00:25:19] and how well it's going,
[00:25:21] they can mean different things to different people.
[00:25:23] And I wouldn't dictate what model works for you
[00:25:25] for coaching, what model works for your team.
[00:25:27] You need to find those things out.
[00:25:30] There's an unlimited amount of resources.
[00:25:32] There are if anything there's too much.
[00:25:34] So I like to keep it simple even now
[00:25:36] when my teams, I like to come in and ask the question
[00:25:39] and what is it you think you can do better?
[00:25:42] There's no my job to tell you that
[00:25:44] because I can say, you know what,
[00:25:45] I really think you could do this better.
[00:25:47] You could do a lot of gym work just there.
[00:25:49] You could do left and right.
[00:25:51] And you might be sitting there going,
[00:25:53] they'll think so David, I'm working on the legs.
[00:25:56] There's at least an agreement between you.
[00:25:57] So you need to understand what people think
[00:26:00] as opposed to you just acting.
[00:26:01] Now if you think that people,
[00:26:03] and I do talk about this,
[00:26:03] I've got a real opportunity in proving something.
[00:26:06] You need to find the way I coaching that out
[00:26:08] or sort of bringing it out.
[00:26:10] And it happened in a space where somebody just doesn't get it.
[00:26:12] And I just said, this is what I see.
[00:26:14] What do you think?
[00:26:15] And you get them back into it.
[00:26:16] So I think that's a two for one for me, we coach.
[00:26:20] And if you coach other people, you'll improve.
[00:26:22] But also if you look to,
[00:26:23] you can get other people involved in that
[00:26:26] to help you and me and help your improvement.
[00:26:28] And I think again,
[00:26:30] it's I don't believe that the opportunities
[00:26:32] that were afforded me from on development
[00:26:35] were unique to me.
[00:26:36] I think they were available to other people.
[00:26:38] All you had to do was say yes.
[00:26:41] All that's going to cost you is about a time, Martin, right?
[00:26:44] But if you're investing
[00:26:47] and somebody's willing to invest in you as well,
[00:26:50] then doesn't it get any better than that?
[00:26:52] And how much does that saying yes
[00:26:55] also mean that you've got to embrace being uncomfortable
[00:27:00] and everything that that brings?
[00:27:02] You talk about feedback,
[00:27:03] it's few and far between I can remember people coming to me
[00:27:07] when I was contact centre manager
[00:27:09] and saying, I'd like you to observe me
[00:27:13] and all give me feedback on my coaching style.
[00:27:15] The ones that did instantly I'm like,
[00:27:18] oh well, well done, that's great.
[00:27:20] Yeah, fine, let's go for it.
[00:27:21] Because they were open to feeling uncomfortable.
[00:27:26] Yeah, you've got to embrace that a little bit, Martin.
[00:27:29] You know, even now sometimes
[00:27:31] when you see somebody gearing up to give you a bad feedback
[00:27:34] and particularly this level, you think,
[00:27:36] oh okay, you're knuckling down a bit.
[00:27:38] But I think if you can get past that,
[00:27:40] I mean, probably a bit like me,
[00:27:41] you've done, you've been a service as well
[00:27:43] with people anonymously.
[00:27:45] But I'm just asking you, like, okay, we'll be here,
[00:27:47] this goes, but I think that real time sort of feedback
[00:27:53] is invaluable, right?
[00:27:54] And back in the day,
[00:27:55] and I don't think you see it as much
[00:27:57] now there's a lot of role-play stuff.
[00:27:59] And I remember it's like, oh no, there's role-play.
[00:28:02] But there was never a time that I did it
[00:28:03] and I came out and I didn't learn something.
[00:28:05] Yeah, of course.
[00:28:06] So you're allowed a little bit,
[00:28:08] whoa, that feels sheer, I think.
[00:28:10] But if you can go in with you,
[00:28:13] I will benefit for this, then you will.
[00:28:16] And it comes back to the,
[00:28:17] if I believe I can do it or I can, then I'm right.
[00:28:20] If I believe that I'm going to get benefit, I will.
[00:28:22] I went in the course one time
[00:28:23] and the biggest thing that got out of there
[00:28:25] was the time I spent with the people around me.
[00:28:26] I learnt more from them than the course
[00:28:28] and that was interacting with each other.
[00:28:30] It was how they dealt with situations
[00:28:32] versus how I was dealing with them
[00:28:34] and thinking to myself,
[00:28:35] if I did that, I'd have been a little bit better.
[00:28:37] And the course was okay.
[00:28:39] I was refreshing some of them.
[00:28:41] Actually the power in the room
[00:28:42] is the people in the room,
[00:28:43] particularly in Team Leader for Community
[00:28:46] because you learn so much.
[00:28:49] One of the things that people don't talk about
[00:28:51] when you become a team leader
[00:28:52] is dealing me all the stuff
[00:28:54] that happens in people's lives.
[00:28:55] And the reality is none of us are counsellors
[00:28:58] and I'm not listening.
[00:28:59] There's not a job I wouldn't want less in the world
[00:29:02] than to be somebody's counsellor.
[00:29:04] But you find yourself dragged into that a little bit.
[00:29:06] You need to be sensitive to what's going on
[00:29:08] and I think that I learned a lot
[00:29:10] because I'm not naturally sensitive either.
[00:29:12] I'm quite, if you say something to me,
[00:29:13] I just take the pace value of the dog,
[00:29:15] personally, bendy dog.
[00:29:17] So I tend to be quite direct in how I communicate
[00:29:21] and what you learn is not everybody likes that man.
[00:29:23] So that's okay because you need to be sensitive to that.
[00:29:27] You need to understand that some people
[00:29:28] need you to take them around the walk
[00:29:30] before you can hit them in a punchline
[00:29:32] whereas some people are like,
[00:29:33] just you know what, I've only two minutes,
[00:29:34] go and just tell me what you want.
[00:29:36] So there's a lot in that
[00:29:38] and you can get that benefit from working with people
[00:29:40] who are not like you.
[00:29:42] And again, that was a lame thing for me.
[00:29:44] I used to love working with people like me
[00:29:46] and doing stuff quickly and executing
[00:29:48] and the rest of it.
[00:29:49] Part of my self-development
[00:29:51] was understanding the value that people brought
[00:29:53] who didn't think like me,
[00:29:55] did things different to me
[00:29:57] with a different way of doing it
[00:29:58] because everything and again, I would need that.
[00:30:01] Or, and I'll actually say something,
[00:30:02] particularly as a senior leader,
[00:30:04] I've got to be people who reflect us
[00:30:06] because I'm not a natural reflector either.
[00:30:08] So understanding yourself is important
[00:30:11] for both coaching and self-development.
[00:30:13] And I think if you get them in the mud or mist,
[00:30:16] I'm not saying these are the perfect order you do,
[00:30:18] this should be the best team in the world.
[00:30:20] You see things and it'll work for you.
[00:30:21] What I'm saying is you give yourself
[00:30:22] a huge chance at success.
[00:30:24] You believe in yourself if you plan well
[00:30:26] and if you coach yourself to develop.
[00:30:28] There's other things that you do
[00:30:29] and I talk about them as well.
[00:30:31] And then I've talked practically
[00:30:32] about my experience with them,
[00:30:33] but honestly, I can stress or not
[00:30:36] if I'm a Spinean leader watching this
[00:30:39] or a team leader doing it
[00:30:40] or you're a senior leader
[00:30:41] wondering how they get more from the team leaders.
[00:30:43] Find the time they invest
[00:30:44] because too many contacts
[00:30:46] and there's too busy on the delivery
[00:30:49] and not thinking like,
[00:30:50] let's shut them in the soil
[00:30:51] and get people moving a bit quicker
[00:30:52] so walking on each other.
[00:30:54] How do they,
[00:30:55] how would people approach breaking that cycle then
[00:31:00] of we're too busy, we're too busy, we're too busy?
[00:31:03] You mentioned earlier
[00:31:04] that kind of allocating time for self development
[00:31:07] and they could be reading the book.
[00:31:11] But if you were talking to other senior leaders now,
[00:31:15] if people are recognizing
[00:31:16] I would love to develop my team,
[00:31:18] how does it come back to planning?
[00:31:20] How do they do it?
[00:31:22] Well, it starts with the need to believe that they want it.
[00:31:26] I think that somebody once told me
[00:31:29] people do what they want to do, mom.
[00:31:32] And that's one of those really deep profound statements
[00:31:35] that you don't realize it is
[00:31:36] until you go away and think about it.
[00:31:39] A lot of senior leaders,
[00:31:40] I've been in this trap before,
[00:31:41] you have filled anything can be busy
[00:31:44] and as the outcome and it'll deliver it.
[00:31:47] I'll come back to what I think is important
[00:31:49] about believe planning and coaching again
[00:31:51] as well as that.
[00:31:52] If you get the inputs right,
[00:31:54] in theory, the output should work.
[00:31:56] Now you've always been set chasing,
[00:31:57] I used to work in more and every time they wanted to know
[00:32:00] well, not so much like that.
[00:32:01] The phones would ring off the hook.
[00:32:04] If you plan for it,
[00:32:05] you need bring in like 300 FTE
[00:32:07] and the business is really doing that, right?
[00:32:09] So you just took the hat.
[00:32:10] Yeah.
[00:32:11] At that point,
[00:32:12] you're pulling your offline time as a senior leader.
[00:32:14] You're focused on the delivery
[00:32:15] for the customer and for the business.
[00:32:18] But what you need to be doing
[00:32:19] is looking at your year as a whole same way.
[00:32:21] We know this is a quiet period.
[00:32:23] This is where we're going to double down
[00:32:24] investment for people.
[00:32:25] This is where I saw 100,000 in the budget
[00:32:28] trained people we should do it.
[00:32:30] As an individual,
[00:32:31] but you're thinking right,
[00:32:32] okay, where in my week do I have gaps?
[00:32:34] And I was taught when I done time management training,
[00:32:36] I was taught how to plan for time hoovers
[00:32:39] and unexpected events.
[00:32:40] You put time into planning your calendar.
[00:32:43] Now, people have get the habit
[00:32:44] and I'm sure most people recognize that somewhere
[00:32:47] in their own business
[00:32:48] where people send you an invite
[00:32:49] and don't even check your calendar.
[00:32:51] And I learned this from an old boss.
[00:32:53] He used to just delete them.
[00:32:54] They'd go, I'm not coming.
[00:32:56] You've got to check the calendar.
[00:32:57] You've even asked me,
[00:32:58] you've just come over to talk,
[00:32:59] you're like, oh Christ,
[00:33:00] I need to go and fix that, right?
[00:33:02] And I think there's a respect out there for people
[00:33:04] if you're going to ask for the time you check the GORI.
[00:33:07] You know, and I think if you were really disciplined
[00:33:09] about your own say something,
[00:33:10] I'm not tending if you don't have an agenda
[00:33:12] or you least give me the gesture why you want me
[00:33:15] and what I'm going to do.
[00:33:17] So that whole bit about was it.
[00:33:20] I think you get your best sources of world saying stuff
[00:33:23] like you should never have any more than two peaks
[00:33:25] I'm eating, they're mostly eating stuff.
[00:33:27] Sometimes a slice necessary to get your aesthetics over.
[00:33:31] Sometimes two pieces is not enough
[00:33:33] because it's a really hard problem.
[00:33:35] You've got a group of people.
[00:33:36] But if you're invited to call somebody's
[00:33:38] actually for your time one-to-one
[00:33:40] and again, I got this from another old boss one
[00:33:41] who used to ask for an early G half of the
[00:33:44] you're like, I need it.
[00:33:45] Now you don't get focused.
[00:33:47] And I think that's important is the cricket rebout
[00:33:50] Ray, Rijabem Smith and Jackie Chan.
[00:33:52] Isn't it?
[00:33:53] Your focus needs more focus.
[00:33:55] And that builds time from a senior leader perspective
[00:33:59] because I know a lot, listen to your showman was
[00:34:02] be courageous, right?
[00:34:04] When you're getting that downward pressure
[00:34:06] from some of the teams saying cut your costs
[00:34:07] at the same level.
[00:34:09] If we invest a wee bit of time,
[00:34:11] a wee bit of shrinkage, I hate that word,
[00:34:13] but a wee bit of shrinkage
[00:34:15] and we're planning schedule.
[00:34:18] These guys will be 2% better than they were before
[00:34:20] when you run.
[00:34:21] That's it, yeah.
[00:34:23] And actually, again,
[00:34:25] there's loads of cliches floating about our business
[00:34:27] but that whole bit about what if we invest in people
[00:34:29] and they leave
[00:34:30] and I always like the bit of the investors
[00:34:32] what if we don't this day?
[00:34:34] Yeah.
[00:34:35] And only once their operation
[00:34:36] go backwards man, I certainly don't.
[00:34:38] And I think that at this stage in my career
[00:34:41] it's important to me that people get opportunities.
[00:34:44] I was afforded this important to me that
[00:34:46] if people want it, they can develop and progress.
[00:34:48] But equally, if people have got a job
[00:34:50] that they can still learn more about it
[00:34:53] or still add more value
[00:34:54] because nobody wants to be a team leader
[00:34:57] or a knots manager or a sales center manager
[00:34:59] or any of those types of jobs.
[00:35:03] I think that the idea that people just do a job
[00:35:05] and stay in it is redundant at my eyes.
[00:35:07] You can always develop and prove yourself
[00:35:10] and I think we should be encouraging that
[00:35:11] by creating space for it.
[00:35:13] And I think that starts with senior leaders.
[00:35:14] I don't think it starts with team leaders
[00:35:16] or office managers, directors, manager-ed leaders
[00:35:19] needing best time and money in the people.
[00:35:22] And if you do, you'll get there
[00:35:23] at the time like genuinely believe that.
[00:35:26] That's great.
[00:35:27] How would you summarize then the sections
[00:35:29] after self-development and coaching?
[00:35:31] What's the next part?
[00:35:34] Yeah, I mean, I'm checking my own notes here
[00:35:36] to make sure I've got it right, you know?
[00:35:38] But I talk a lot about delivery and execution.
[00:35:41] I'm in my day job as well.
[00:35:44] I honestly see if you ask me to put a slide deck together.
[00:35:47] It's not great.
[00:35:49] I can do it because I've learned how to do it.
[00:35:52] I don't enjoy it.
[00:35:53] I enjoy this, I enjoy the dialogue,
[00:35:55] I enjoy the conversations
[00:35:58] if I'm doing a town hall event or a presentation.
[00:36:01] The slides at the back of me
[00:36:03] quite often I'll stand and print them as well
[00:36:04] so you can see them just a bit annoying.
[00:36:06] So from that perspective,
[00:36:08] I'm focused on the delivery and the execution
[00:36:10] and the context and the concept
[00:36:12] versus how that looks aesthetically.
[00:36:15] And I would always argue that that's more important.
[00:36:17] I've worked with loads of people and I remember
[00:36:20] and you can beat as old at times, right?
[00:36:22] Somebody puts this big shiny, shiny on the screen
[00:36:25] and they remind me I've worked with media companies
[00:36:27] and telecosters and stuff.
[00:36:28] They incorporate us writing this stuff
[00:36:30] and you're like, wow, how can I not write that?
[00:36:32] And then you realise they've studied
[00:36:33] for four years today, right?
[00:36:35] And then you go to execute the plan
[00:36:38] and you go, that's unworkable.
[00:36:40] You know, when I went for jobs and I've had a 3.1
[00:36:44] and people, you speak, they be laughing
[00:36:45] and you add 20 things, I mean, could you deliver that?
[00:36:48] And even now, when I typically interview
[00:36:52] Martin, I'll ask people who say,
[00:36:53] what's your 30, 60, 90 day plan?
[00:36:55] And see if it's that busy,
[00:36:56] I'm just sitting there thinking
[00:36:58] that this one doesn't understand what's going on.
[00:36:59] It's not what happened.
[00:37:00] So I talk about that, I talk about MagPine,
[00:37:02] we've spoken about MagPine before
[00:37:04] and getting support.
[00:37:05] I love the idea of borrowing MagPine
[00:37:08] or stealing the bits of silver
[00:37:09] and putting it in your own nest and using that.
[00:37:12] I think a lot of what I do and how I am
[00:37:15] and approach stuff is stuff
[00:37:17] that I've gleaned from other people.
[00:37:20] Set my ball, right?
[00:37:21] So you talked about earlier, about your belief
[00:37:23] but you still need to know what success looks like.
[00:37:28] For me, I still do this every year,
[00:37:29] I write down three objectives.
[00:37:31] I still think in ink, I write it in black and white
[00:37:34] because it hurts me, it's part of my learning style.
[00:37:37] But I'll typically write two professional
[00:37:39] and one personal or two personal, one professional
[00:37:41] always let's live out of a three or one.
[00:37:44] And then I'll say, okay,
[00:37:45] I've been successful against this,
[00:37:47] I'm achieving what I set out to do personally.
[00:37:50] The all of us, if you work in the industry
[00:37:52] will have some sort of targets again
[00:37:54] and KPIs got there, we've talked about it
[00:37:56] but keep it simple, anyone free by KPIs
[00:38:00] you're pushing people the wrong way.
[00:38:02] Yeah, there's triggers and there's indicators
[00:38:03] you need to look at and be mindful of it.
[00:38:05] If you believe, which I do,
[00:38:07] if you get the inputs right in your operation,
[00:38:09] you're really clear about what success looks like.
[00:38:12] You shouldn't in theory need more.
[00:38:15] And I think technologies to blame a wee bit man,
[00:38:17] we can do more than we ever did.
[00:38:19] In call centres, you've got tools like
[00:38:21] speech miner for example,
[00:38:22] not criticizing the tool, it's a great tool.
[00:38:25] People get all we can tell you this and tell you that.
[00:38:28] The answer to that Martin should be great, thanks.
[00:38:31] It should be less than 15 targets
[00:38:33] but what people say in a call.
[00:38:34] Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:35] Because otherwise the call becomes stealthy
[00:38:37] and less natural
[00:38:38] and at least it approach their business model
[00:38:41] and my opinion is still the best.
[00:38:43] Yeah, because it's more natural.
[00:38:45] Yeah, and I get that and then I just talk a wee bit
[00:38:47] but we can learn other things
[00:38:48] you can look at while Bess and Bob's and dig into
[00:38:51] because ultimately if you're really, really focused
[00:38:53] and you want to do well,
[00:38:55] there's lots out there you can learn from
[00:38:57] and I would advocate that right?
[00:38:59] And as I said at the beginning,
[00:39:01] these very high level books from people in millions,
[00:39:04] they still say stuff and I've said it before
[00:39:06] and I'll say it again, this will follow your heart thing.
[00:39:10] How does it help you when your back shift in the salad
[00:39:12] there were 12 people in Glasgow right?
[00:39:14] And you'd go to pay the bills
[00:39:15] and you'd get a couple of kids to look after
[00:39:17] so I'm not really into that
[00:39:18] but if you can find the job where you feel
[00:39:21] you're at and value, you enjoy it,
[00:39:22] you're getting outcomes, that's good, right?
[00:39:25] And it's this thing where you need to do
[00:39:27] and tell you progress
[00:39:28] and that's why the second part of the book is my one story.
[00:39:31] I talk about going away
[00:39:33] and working on these cold-store fridges
[00:39:35] and I never really came to that a lot
[00:39:37] but talk about how it grew up
[00:39:39] because each and every one of us as a leader
[00:39:42] was a mixture of nature and nature, isn't it?
[00:39:44] It's a bit of what we're experienced in
[00:39:46] I would always say that seven years out at the airport
[00:39:49] helped me talk to anybody at any level
[00:39:51] because I just had a lot of care
[00:39:53] and playing draw the truck badly
[00:39:55] shut the airport to traverse the truck in
[00:39:57] and I used to sit one time
[00:39:58] but I used to speak to pilots and people at that time
[00:40:01] in my career, they were really senior people
[00:40:04] just going back and speaking to someone
[00:40:06] who's in the store room
[00:40:07] and dealing with deaf people, it's from tax
[00:40:09] I always felt that that helped me not be fearful
[00:40:12] to ask the question
[00:40:13] and you see people in rooms
[00:40:14] we see you always and people
[00:40:16] and they're just people, right?
[00:40:18] I asked them the question
[00:40:20] some are better than others
[00:40:22] and we can get any talking about that
[00:40:25] it's a different bit
[00:40:25] but I think if you really care about your business
[00:40:28] you want to know what your team leaders are telling you
[00:40:31] you don't want to find it translated
[00:40:33] so that the world smells of pain
[00:40:35] well, you want to get down there
[00:40:36] and they're trying to find out what's going on
[00:40:38] and I talk about that
[00:40:39] I talk about things that I got right
[00:40:41] I talk about things that got wrong
[00:40:42] I jumped at one job one time and another one
[00:40:44] and God help me
[00:40:45] that was an interesting experience to say the least
[00:40:49] but I think the chapter is called files and fine plans
[00:40:51] do you know what I mean?
[00:40:52] jumping at one end or the other
[00:40:54] but hopefully there's a bit of the stories I'm using
[00:40:56] but hopefully there's a bit of people who go
[00:40:59] well, if he can come for that background
[00:41:01] and do what he's doing now
[00:41:01] then that's available to me
[00:41:04] and I would say people
[00:41:05] I would react to the people
[00:41:07] partners is, you know, I think
[00:41:10] I wouldn't say I've got the biggest IQ in the world
[00:41:12] I wouldn't say I've got the biggest EQ in the world
[00:41:14] right?
[00:41:15] but the marry of those things
[00:41:16] works well together
[00:41:17] plus the learning equals the outcome
[00:41:20] you know, and I think that
[00:41:21] there are so many talented people out there
[00:41:23] who are seen at all levels
[00:41:25] that businesses need to invest more in
[00:41:27] and I get that business pressures
[00:41:30] it's never been harder to do a business
[00:41:31] I think in some ways
[00:41:32] because there's a disconnect between the world
[00:41:35] and the geopolitical circumstances that we live in
[00:41:39] but again, it's just that we've been courageous and brave
[00:41:41] and I think as an individual
[00:41:43] I'd say the book would help you
[00:41:45] just get a different slant on it
[00:41:47] a more authentic slant I would hope
[00:41:49] and I'm certainly not saying here
[00:41:51] that I think I'm going to make millions
[00:41:52] I'm not going to make anybody millions
[00:41:53] well, I'm a waste of all myself
[00:41:54] but what I would say is, pretend on
[00:41:57] the worst that you're going to get
[00:41:58] is some good advice
[00:42:00] and a wee bit of a story
[00:42:01] so you've got a two for one I would say, right?
[00:42:03] I should have said I'm in section
[00:42:06] Well, I'm a big fan of you
[00:42:09] I'm a big fan of the book
[00:42:10] and I would thoroughly recommend
[00:42:13] whether you are a team leader
[00:42:14] want to be a team leader
[00:42:16] manage team leaders
[00:42:18] it is worth the money
[00:42:20] and like you say it's written from
[00:42:22] is kind of you're an authentic guy
[00:42:25] you've been there, you've done it
[00:42:27] you've been around good people
[00:42:29] you know, what's not to like about it
[00:42:31] so for people that want to get it
[00:42:33] what's the best way for them to get it?
[00:42:36] It's Amazon, right?
[00:42:37] So there's a lot to be said about Amazon as a company
[00:42:40] but the bloody easy to do business with, right?
[00:42:43] So you can buy that paper copy
[00:42:45] just I typically put the link on my li profile
[00:42:49] but also I'm going to put on KDP on the Kindle app
[00:42:52] because a lot of people have apps
[00:42:54] so that should be available from then to be
[00:42:55] but the moment they're written copies on Amazon
[00:42:57] just type in leading the line
[00:42:59] and it'll come up
[00:43:00] and the six reviews they are saying is five stars
[00:43:02] so that's good
[00:43:03] I think I'm currently 539 on time management
[00:43:07] on the list
[00:43:08] so if I can if I can lift that up in the book, 500
[00:43:11] that's what success looks like just then Martin
[00:43:13] but they are...
[00:43:15] It's because it's real
[00:43:17] it's because it's real people that are giving reviews
[00:43:19] you haven't gone out and bought them or whatever
[00:43:23] and look David thanks very much for coming on
[00:43:26] sharing your story, hat trick appearance
[00:43:29] but it's a great book
[00:43:31] it's perfect for team leaders
[00:43:34] and hopefully you'll come back on
[00:43:35] and do appearance number four
[00:43:37] where you talk about the follow-up book
[00:43:40] There is a follow-up started
[00:43:42] we'll see where we get to
[00:43:43] but what I will do Martin
[00:43:45] thank you for having me on
[00:43:46] great to talk to you
[00:43:47] 50 minutes just like that
[00:43:50] crazy
[00:43:51] what I will do for the leadership
[00:43:53] a couple of other copies up for grabs
[00:43:56] I'll go on the app at some point and see
[00:43:58] I'm not sure how it will get there
[00:43:59] my people will find the way
[00:44:01] because I've got a couple sitting
[00:44:03] but thank you for having me
[00:44:05] hope people enjoy the podcast
[00:44:07] but also if they get the book then let me know
[00:44:09] let me know how you feel it
[00:44:10] and what you want me to do in the next one
[00:44:12] thanks very much
[00:44:13] thank you mate
[00:44:19] thank you for listening to another episode of
[00:44:21] get out a wrap
[00:44:23] I'm able to bring you this
[00:44:24] thanks to my partners
[00:44:25] that's DDC, Outsourcing Solutions
[00:44:29] EvaluAgent and OneCom
[00:44:31] if you are interested in partnering with
[00:44:33] get out a wrap
[00:44:35] please do let me know
[00:44:36] it's because of my partners
[00:44:37] that I'm able to bring you
[00:44:39] all of this content
[00:44:40] about the contact center world that we love
[00:44:43] thanks a lot, bye bye