#199 Helen & Pete of BPA Quality on Consumer Duty one year on.

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap.

[00:00:05] It is the return of the three Musketeers.

[00:00:08] I am joined by Helen Manahan and Pete Dunn.

[00:00:12] My friends, we all used to work together at BPA Quality.

[00:00:17] There is an actual subject matter to this but do forgive us if we just wander around

[00:00:26] the inner workings of our brains and our shared experiences and connection because I love these two humans dearly.

[00:00:34] They are very well respected in the industry but we are here to talk about Consumer Duty which,

[00:00:42] thanks to Pete and Helen, they reminded me it is coming up to about a year since this has been unleashed

[00:00:50] and we are here to talk about what they have seen, what it means and to share tips and talk,

[00:00:57] maybe comment on how people are implementing it.

[00:01:01] It feels like it has been less than a year but I guess if Helen,

[00:01:07] I was going to say starting with you, you have been immersed in helping your clients

[00:01:13] and talking about this and what it means for important things like vulnerability.

[00:01:19] Has it had the change that you expected when you first read about it and it was coming?

[00:01:26] It is really interesting the way that you position that.

[00:01:28] About a year and I think in goodness anyone in the financial industry will know exactly the day it came into effect.

[00:01:35] Firstly, last year and now for the close book products at the end of July this year.

[00:01:39] It feels like that indelible mark a bit like when GDPR came into effect back in 2018.

[00:01:46] We all had that deadline in our minds and now we are past it.

[00:01:51] It is just the start of the journey I think.

[00:01:54] It certainly was a step change from a narrow compliance driven view to a very customer centric focus on good outcomes.

[00:02:04] Also recognising really diverse customer needs and how we can meet them at every stage of that consumer,

[00:02:09] that customer life cycle and journey with our firm.

[00:02:14] Just the idea of putting ourselves in our customer's shoes.

[00:02:16] Of course that should not be new news and it shouldn't have been new news in July 2023 or even in 2022.

[00:02:23] It is great for the good word of BPA.

[00:02:29] That is what we have been saying for a very long time that the customer centricity is paramount.

[00:02:33] It is great that we have a whole industry with a regulator that is taking this idea of looking at customer journeys and outcomes from a more holistic place.

[00:02:45] Maybe the 500 feet view but also maybe just a couple of inches off the ground view as well.

[00:02:50] Thinking, asking ourselves would we be happy to be treated in the way that our firm is treating our customers?

[00:02:57] I don't know if I've answered your question there but lots has happened.

[00:03:02] Broadly, although difficult to implement, I think it's all been for the good of the industry and certainly for customers.

[00:03:07] I would love to come to that view of the move from the regulator from compliance to really thinking about customer, customer experience, customer journey.

[00:03:19] Like you say that kind of holistic outlook as opposed to quite binary I guess.

[00:03:25] But you mentioned the phrase there, closed book. What does that mean?

[00:03:32] So those are products that are no longer out there for customers to choose but are still there for existing customers.

[00:03:40] So ultimately any products that are no longer live in the market. I hope I've explained that sufficiently.

[00:03:47] That's interesting. P, have you seen then the companies have just gone,

[00:03:53] do you know what it doesn't matter whether it's for our existing customers and products that might be no longer being offered to new customers?

[00:04:02] Or have they compartmentalized their approach? Have they done it? Have they gone, you know what there's some really good stuff here we're going to apply to everyone or they've kind of broken it down?

[00:04:11] It's a both and some other approaches essentially to pick up on a point of hella made there from the FCA perspective and people that have heard you by so insurance is fintech, financial services, etc.

[00:04:26] The view on this was you know even a year, year and a half, two years before we went live where they've been far more explicit than they ever have been before in terms of what it actually means as opposed to yes is it no is it about balancing grace.

[00:04:44] I think a lot of companies have, to my mind, my opinion done well with it. They've gone with that more narrative approach and they've kind of gone, actually this isn't about the products per se.

[00:04:56] It's about how we interact with our customers to make it easy to understand what products we have and now with this expansion what products we used to have but might still be live in terms of being paid for by customers even as they can't you know, sell it new.

[00:05:14] And some companies that the other end of that spectrum of almost kind of think be quite reactive, looked at it from quite a product led lens and gone.

[00:05:22] You know, this transured products we're going to do this with this transured products we do this with. That's not to say those two different approaches at the kind of far into the spectrum of one's good ones bad.

[00:05:36] But I would say more complete and more effective approach we've seen is less about product or about service and servicing your customers just being better at servicing your customers, which in many respects with this latest expansion should mean that it should affect get easier.

[00:05:55] I think to look after customers because instead of having two central approaches, we've seen a couple of our clients especially kind of just gone we just need to do a better approach at this.

[00:06:08] And from the get go they were all not talking about everything they did. So this should now for those companies it didn't quite deal with that it should just almost kind of remove any differences of approach which of course you know more due for the squeeze in terms of how you approach your customer contact.

[00:06:25] If can I ask what might be a contentious question. If this is then if this was outcomes based and really considering all groups of customers how they interact with your service how you, how you portray it and the ease with which people can navigate through their interaction with you.

[00:06:48] Have you seen shouldn't they have been doing that anyway. And did have you seen some that are kind of the more let's say progressive companies were found it easier to adapt to this new being under this new regulation or has it raised the standard and I guess that could be yes to both could it.

[00:07:10] I think the idea about you know has it raised the standard it's probably a bit too early really to take a view on you know what the impact is at this point I mean it's kind of the time to look at how things that are coming along I mean we've had those first board reports and the FCA just expressed a bit of disappointment that there was a lot of data a lot of a lot of what but not really that much of the so what and the now what that's my language.

[00:07:34] You know, they're not not a great deal in some cases of analysis and kind of recommendations about the finding that's interesting though so that the FCA have already communicated their kind of view on how well it's been undertaken.

[00:07:51] Is that right.

[00:07:52] Yeah they gave a few on that in their in their recent I mean Shell the Mills gave a webinar, I think it was last week and yeah made that point that the overall that they're pleased to see the progress and they do reference that it is a journey that's his language it's a journey.

[00:08:07] So it is really an opportunity to take stock but not to they never want the consumer duty to be viewed as a one and done.

[00:08:14] It's not a tick you know that mean we've done it majority completed it may it's never going to be there or it certainly shouldn't be and we.

[00:08:21] We know that with anything that truly customer centric customer needs evolve you know the landscape that we're all living in the world.

[00:08:29] If you know our kind of thought work in any way you know we talk a lot about that the poly crisis the permanent crisis this kind of backdrop of all of the kind of.

[00:08:39] You know vagaries that life is throwing at all of us on the regular as it were and what that means for our contacts and our expectations and our hopes when we come into contact with an organization.

[00:08:52] And you know those moments of truth that then come about when we finally experience just how well the firm or the organization can you know meet us where we are in our moment of need.

[00:09:05] Yeah, it's been up on that how or not in case of how well they can meet us.

[00:09:10] Yeah, good point.

[00:09:12] So yeah I really like that point there from heading around you know it's not a it's not one of them it's absolutely opposite of that right is that continuing approach to better customer experience but we know there's this wider backdrop.

[00:09:26] Within this permanent crisis that customer experience expectations and delivery have probably never been further above and this is a year on year trend that continues to push it in in that direction.

[00:09:40] The XTA came out with some really kind of positive updates from their first year but your question around have they already spoken on it.

[00:09:48] Yes, I think as well they've been more vocal about firms that they've kind of summoned.

[00:09:55] I think you know said when we need to have a chat with you we think there's a problem there.

[00:09:58] They've been a lot more vocal around how they're supporting and different ways that they're interfacing with the industry when we're seeing lots of new challenges as well.

[00:10:07] So we must the same way that we saw the ambulance chasing of PPI now we've got the commissions issues and we've got the emissions issues.

[00:10:17] Couldn't say that again, I tried and so there's a lot going on in the FCA space where they kind of I think they're actually being a lot more approachable as a regulator understanding that actually they're asking for a lot.

[00:10:30] Yeah, there's a lot going on full stop with AI and various other bits and pieces which you know we could dig into a bit more.

[00:10:37] There's also research out there that says especially for vulnerable customers that the some of the largest kind of brands within this space have taken approaches that at first glance would seem quite robust and following what the FCA is saying but their customers in turn are going.

[00:10:57] You know it's more difficult than ever to talk to a person. It's more difficult than ever as a vulnerable customer to interact with these services.

[00:11:05] While these steps that have made me take you know on my behalf as a vulnerable customer have actually reduced my capacity to interact with this company especially for the digital and literature and such that.

[00:11:17] Trying to push everyone into it into a channel containment with AI and chatbots is not the thing you know necessarily the thing that works the best.

[00:11:27] So does this it's you know it's going to continue I think all the next few weeks and months to really kind of we're going to see as always lots of data, lots of insight, lots of commentary on what is it what what is actually happening and what does this actually mean the soul what.

[00:11:44] How is it impacting customers.

[00:11:48] It's really good and the FCA clearly you know they want to help people improve and not just going to be there as kind of punitive.

[00:11:55] Wrist slapper and kind of fine collector I think you know they are making efforts to simplify things you know they've had feedback as though they called out that the rules are very complex which clearly they are but they're you know kind of inviting voice is into that so.

[00:12:11] You know and I heard you there again Pete referenced the kind of outcomes based thing and they want to be a flexible outcomes based regulator so lots of you know walking the talk there not modeling what they want to see again which is good.

[00:12:26] You guys have been living and breathing it and I know all the work you do it's you certainly educated me in the past around what it means and the but it's actually sounds positive.

[00:12:43] You know some of my background was financial services and we certainly didn't have this view of the FCA then it was fear Bay.

[00:12:52] All of an anything so it's really encouraging actually to hear hear what you're saying and I you started Helen with this kind of the phrase around making sure that all of the diverse groups that make up customer bases make up us customers are.

[00:13:10] Are very much being included in this and Pete you mentioned vulnerability now.

[00:13:16] I know and anyone that's been through any of your training or seen any of the stuff that you guys do that this is a this is an area of expertise it have you seen a change in.

[00:13:29] Well have you had to change how you do any of your training or is vulnerability got more focus now than prior to that you know when this came in a year ago.

[00:13:41] Yeah I mean so in terms of changing week this is not new news for us in terms of customer centricity and you know focusing what is the need associated with the vulnerability and meeting those needs and you know taking a very individualized approach but of course that quite nuanced in itself and it.

[00:13:59] Almost speaks to a whole range of things that need to be in place for that that to happen so I think this new focus on what was it new the prevailing focus on.

[00:14:09] A kind of service mindset over that transactional approaches is kind of music to our ears you know we know that they're still in consistencies around taking a service approach to different customer groups for example you know particularly vulnerable customers and so.

[00:14:25] We want to make sure that we are really understanding those needs and maybe looking at our data a bit differently as well and thinking about you know segregating segmenting rather on needs base basis of need rather than just that socio demographic kind of data that we might historically be tempted to do you know.

[00:14:44] I keep thinking about that meme it did the rounds on LinkedIn and Twitter a couple years ago is.

[00:14:50] At the time Prince Charles and Ozzy Osbourne and there was this like spooky alignment in it was like both born in the same year you know raised in the UK both had to two marriages both living in a castle but you know rich famous whatever.

[00:15:05] And it was really funny but it also called out this really key point around you know the use of personas and how we design our services and our interactions you know it shouldn't really be about demographics it should be about the problems and the challenges.

[00:15:21] That our customers facing an individual level and the challenges they bring to us and about how we help them to solve those problems and kind of meet meet the needs and the communication needs and guide them towards.

[00:15:34] However we can giving them all the information they need to essentially make an informed decision whatever that looks like for them and therefore delivering a good outcome you know even if they're not completely satisfied that's the thing it's about doing everything we can within our.

[00:15:49] Our remit and our power but like I said right at the top of this little you know kind of.

[00:15:54] Now I'm firmly on my soapbox now there are a lot of dependencies to getting that right so definitely to your earlier point and to your earlier question the shift towards inquiries around vulnerability and the appetite to then kind of convert those into you know programs for change.

[00:16:14] We've definitely seen a continued uptick so this started really you know back in 2021 2022 probably born by the pandemic and then as the consumer duty came into focus.

[00:16:25] Certainly in financial services we've seen a lot more from from those clients lots of inquiries and opportunities to work with them both front line teams but also other teams.

[00:16:36] And yeah the answer ultimately is yes we're seeing a shift but it's not a shift so much in in our own ethos and attitude about knowing what needs to be done.

[00:16:46] MT you know what we do well enough to know the human element is something that we will continuously talk about you know tech tech being an enabler and not a silver bullet and really.

[00:16:58] The human side of working with vulnerable customers and recognizing that that vulnerability is affecting all of us you know is not going to go away until we literally have everything done by bots and we're in bots are interacting with bots on our behalf.

[00:17:16] And that's all the time I think you know at the point where you need to speak to an organization about something emotionally loaded or problematic or complex or gnawley you want to speak to not just a human but a human that really is able to empathize with you and be that

[00:17:36] empathetic problem silver sorry for that long winded speech but yeah it's great I love it when you were on the soap up kick it away now.

[00:17:45] I always have and you're dead right I think someone we all know and have enjoyed working with I'm sure Andrew will say that it probably was something like 2014 2015 he first wrote about the human element and I guess now even more so.

[00:18:06] That's even more important and Pete you mentioned something earlier a phrase that I very rarely hear about love which was that kind of did you say did you did did you digitally illiterate.

[00:18:18] I did say yes not like that.

[00:18:21] I'm not going to try it but I'll do it but but yes absolute and that's just one facet of vulnerability that we're seeing evidence surface a lot more so there's a significant number of different vulnerabilities that I think a lot of people to pick on a point that.

[00:18:37] A lot of people we kind of look from a top down view at an organization when.

[00:18:43] Is this a good enough experience for our customers especially in moments of vulnerability so she when they need a helping hand.

[00:18:51] Especially when techs taking away all of the kind of the mundane and repetition repetition activity and what's left is the gnarly the way to call the case is the high emotion.

[00:19:02] Have we actually done enough to help not just the tech you know the tech and module clear literate there we go I had a crack in it have we done enough to help them and all the other kind of various.

[00:19:13] You know types and spheres and gamuts of possibility around vulnerability and the extra support that our customers need and.

[00:19:22] To your point happens you know up to yes.

[00:19:25] Is it enough from my perspective not I'm going to stick that out there flagging the ground almost in the last few years we've seen so much then technology right and I again it's everywhere means everything kids is taking over how we interact with each other how we interact in social media.

[00:19:45] How the clickbait headlines and whatever is presented to us by the mainstream media.

[00:19:52] When it comes to a customer experience if you're taking away all of these big big things and what's left is unusual the gnarly the high emotionally charged we haven't done anywhere near enough to support.

[00:20:07] And our front line operations in being able to manage that appropriately and effectively so as a customer looking at that I would say well you look at these huge logos it's huge multinational companies making billions and billions of property.

[00:20:33] I don't think it's the answer and I don't think customers generally with all the research we're seeing.

[00:20:35] The most important thing is to be able to respond appropriately to those situations and more and more tech right now I don't think it's the answer and I don't think customers generally with all the research we're seeing.

[00:20:49] I think it's the answer to get the tech is one of the key areas that in a forest report in a smart money people report.

[00:20:57] Everyone is talking about one of the biggest concern drivers for customers this satisfaction drivers as well is that they can't talk to a person you know so it's not just that logically illiterate it's all of our customers.

[00:21:15] There's something about the use of the word illiterate that I'm just just giving me a little bump I don't know I think I mean it's one of the characteristics of the drivers of vulnerability is around capability.

[00:21:26] And I think we're just all got various levels of capability but there can be you know I mean Pete you say digital isolation sometimes I mean that's really important to know that there are some people that are excluded from the digital world for a variety of reasons it could simply be.

[00:21:41] They can't afford a device they can't afford you know the data to then you know get access the internet or it could be these issues of kind of you know I can't physically I can't navigate getting online.

[00:21:54] Well or you know potentially there could be a variety of reasons why someone else could have set us up with a product or service that we then can't well meaning but then we can't manage on our own afterwards so just wanted to bring out again just listening to you there there's so much new on this and it's.

[00:22:10] Something about illiteracy mate it's got a bit of a negative connotation for me and I appreciate that's not where I came from but is that that understanding of the depths and the breath in the nuance in in the drivers and the characteristics of the ways that we can be vulnerable to harm.

[00:22:26] But you're totally right I mean was it 47% of consumers have got at least one characteristic of vulnerability called into the FCA and I found it really interesting that Sheldon mill said in that recent webinar.

[00:22:39] That as long as like loads of frog analogies as well as well as those I mean I know lots of lots about frogs I learned things about frogs but if you did if you listen to it but anyway.

[00:22:48] It also pulled out exactly the same number that same style of consumers using a digital wallet in 2022 so 47% so 47% of consumers have at least one characteristic vulnerability.

[00:23:02] And that same amount has probably gone up since since that that research are using digital wallets then that feels mildly pretentious to me you know there's something in that that people are engaging so they're not completely illiterate they're engaging but are they then going to engage.

[00:23:18] Encounter problems and face further exclusion or be subject to those poor outcomes that were with that we're all trying desperately to avoid a bit of a ramble there but.

[00:23:29] Yeah, you would like to think given the more positive summary you've given of how the FCA are approaching this that it seems to me just with those stats you shared and Pete your your comments on this I would agree with that we.

[00:23:48] Part of their role then is to make sure that people are not being left behind because.

[00:23:53] Absolutely it's dizzyingly complex right now I mean.

[00:23:58] Again thanks to you two I've understood that you know what you can dip into vulnerability I can think about personal experiences where through time pressure and anything that's financial.

[00:24:11] Then having to engage with the company and you've got a plethora of ways to do it and you're sent different places and.

[00:24:21] And I and you know you you kind of go through that maze right because you want you know you've got to get this thing sorted out and as I've been going through I've been thinking I.

[00:24:33] I'd like to think I'm sort of middle of the road I'm okay my God this must be so stressful for somebody who hasn't got the time that I have.

[00:24:45] You know that this is whether they have their electricity on or not you know there's some real kind of moments there where you find yourself going I'm finding this a struggle and if I'm finding it a struggle.

[00:24:59] And I'm able bodied and all these other things any one of those factors.

[00:25:05] Is going to have a huge and even more a more significant impact for somebody who is well unquote vulnerable and you just think what are we doing yeah exactly right we know that you know people with characteristics of vulnerability are more likely to experience harm as a result of interacting with organizations sadly it's really inevitable.

[00:25:29] That's the lovely bit and the thing about the fact it's really inevitable is that means that we need the foresight to design our products or services our journeys you know line our process procedures with the extremes of accessibility so when we designed for everybody.

[00:25:48] It's more inclusive the people in the middle don't really to your point feel that the difference you know they don't feel that the kind of the level of ease but those people on the on the peripheries of it really do.

[00:26:00] Feel the benefits of more inclusive design more accessible design and when we think that way we can make things better for everybody as we're back to.

[00:26:09] I know Martin we talked about this before but the so you know the vulnerability kind of test the why don't we do this for everybody test like.

[00:26:18] You know we do all of these things like this magic button we press when vulnerability and vulnerable circumstances present but why don't we just make that the norm and that's kind of we're going right back to what we spoke about at the top of the conversation this idea of taking that holistic approach and how valuable it is for everybody and not just the those that.

[00:26:39] Really need it and I need it works for everyone better.

[00:26:42] I love that phrase and you guys must you know designing your processes for the extremes to include everyone.

[00:26:50] I think is great and it prompts me to ask you.

[00:26:55] You know if people come to you and they say we need help with our people so we want them to be up skilled and be to be able to deliver excellent customer service especially to some vulnerable groups and we want to understand what that means better.

[00:27:11] How often though do you then start talking to them about their processes.

[00:27:17] And you know because you can have really skilled people but if their processes actually work against them and their customers.

[00:27:25] Yep. Yeah I was just gonna say it's it's pretty inevitable in most of the most of the scenarios that we start those kind of discussions that we end up kind of expanding the scope out and saying you know with great that you've invested in your people.

[00:27:42] But you know if if they're more inclined to break the principle of good service over a rule that's described in the process that's put in front of them and you're always going to have a gap between what you want and what's delivered.

[00:27:57] Yeah we always say a bad process will be a good advisor every time and in pretty much any training that we run with frontline team members they will they know an intimate detail.

[00:28:08] All the ways that their processes and procedures get in the way of delivering to their customers and whether they need to make a compromise you know just what that looks like but ultimately you know if we don't understand our customers needs then we're going to really not be delivering in our service so we've got to.

[00:28:26] You know design and optimize for those needs for a true service led culture so you know make sure that we are you know thinking about our comms and make sure that they are you know digestible and understandable and our products and services really really do meet needs as well.

[00:28:42] And in order to do that we need to leverage this kind of weapon if you can you know want to use that kind of language which is our frontline teams the people who know what's tripping our customers up.

[00:28:53] Making sure that they are not only empowered to say if they've made it some kind of adjustment that's helped a customer but also to identify hey hey this isn't working for people and let them know that.

[00:29:07] Not only do they have a voice but that voice is being listened to so there is a bit of infrastructure and a bit of work that's needed to be done you can't just encourage people to.

[00:29:15] You know give you the open that virtual suggestion box and then nobody has anything and people get disillusioned and disempowered and stop contributing.

[00:29:25] I can't I can't be succinct today I apologize for that.

[00:29:30] You know me and people quite happily listen because yeah you're an expert and it's it's very insightful and I know you guys offer you know this again this holistic view of like let's bring all of this together a part of which will be your people but let's also look at.

[00:29:45] The whole customer journey from maybe it's from your website maybe then it's how.

[00:29:51] Your and P you mentioned something earlier around this kind of multi on the channel which I truly believe and maybe I'm being naive when this was first.

[00:30:02] This this was going to be will give customers more choice and it's going to be good for customers it came from a good place but actually now.

[00:30:09] Sometimes it's let's let's divert customers away let's make it easier.

[00:30:16] Yes and for me mate I would I would disagree with that I think because I think in too many instances in the majority of instances.

[00:30:23] Whilst there was a level of all this will help our customers what they actually made was this will help our bank balance this will help our cost to serve this will help our margins this will help reduce bombs on seeds costs.

[00:30:36] Because for the longest time a contact center has been a cost center and that's that's just a painful reality of how that's been looked at for a long time way back when they were still call centers.

[00:30:47] And a decade ago phrase that I was using the most on on repeat thankfully I don't have to wait because Ted this quarter and surpassed in this space was the only person who listens to every single interaction that your customers take is is the advice on the other end of it as a collective kind of gestalt.

[00:31:06] You have what's happening now of course with analytics at special day nine in kind of helping speak these processes that you can listen to everything you can you can look at every single channel going but there's still the disconnect there.

[00:31:19] And picking what you made that part of it is around your people not to me people are it.

[00:31:28] Okay so when you ask your people who know what's going on what your customers are talking about you get the qualitative view of why a customer is talking about it where their pain points where those moments of truth in those customer journeys.

[00:31:41] You know a map of customer journey about which widgets and digits happen in the system.

[00:31:47] It's about what's happening for that customer like a true customer journey back to me shouldn't be about you know a SAP screen or sales for screen or whatever it should be about what's happening with that customer in that moment in time what's the impact of it.

[00:32:01] And I would say with a I as well know it can be a great chatbot if you put the right guide guidelines and guide rails in place to start with one of our customers talking about most of pain points how can we interface with them in a way that reduces confusion from the get go right so.

[00:32:22] Well if you know your customers have real issues interfacing from from the digital isolation perspective.

[00:32:29] And start with a box that says you know these are the ways you can interact with us.

[00:32:36] Yeah but that's still starting with the box or start with a paper message start with a text message start with you know what next time someone's out knocking on their door to do a meet or even such they're actually telling them face to face you have to find different ways to breach that first gap.

[00:32:52] Before you even get to the point of the bottom sense is different ways that I can help you.

[00:32:57] You know if it doesn't make sense let me know but we just seem to have missed that first crucial step which is ensuring that everyone has fair and equitable.

[00:33:10] Give access to the services of the companies that they need to interface with because it's not about once sometimes I not always buying sexy products like the latest iPhone or whatever it's sometimes there's a very dry.

[00:33:23] You're right and it looks bigger than it should have been or they've got something you know there's a left from the council.

[00:33:31] Yeah, there is or whatever it might be in it is putting those barriers that causes that kind of extra mental load in the way before they can even talk to your plan.

[00:33:41] AI is not solving that so the people are the solution that they're the main part to me not you know I will stop muffling now but you focus on the.

[00:33:51] So from from what you've both said if you know we we mentioned at the outset around you've been immersed in this I'm sort of I was a bit less a fair at the front about a year.

[00:34:04] So you guys have been immersed in it and those you mentioned those kind of processes designed to be truly accessible the accessibility for everyone right design your processes to the extreme.

[00:34:16] You've just talked then about putting your people at the heart of everything you're doing but not just hearing from them about how the processes can be improved and what are some of the back doors that they maybe have to take that shouldn't be back doors right because I think we've all been there we've all we've all been operators right and you.

[00:34:37] You have a like a black market handbook where the experienced people tell you no don't do that is an easier way and you just go great and know the higher ups don't even know it exists.

[00:34:49] So when when you think when you from what you've seen and that can be your clients you're working with or just the fact that you're within your network talking about this.

[00:35:00] For those that have I don't want to say implemented is there a better word for those that are riding the crest of this wave quite happily on their surfboards.

[00:35:10] What are they what are they doing well what have you helped them do well is it those types of things that you've been talking about.

[00:35:18] Or they kind of said right this is a project this is what we're going to do is an opportunity to assess everything.

[00:35:23] Yeah I'm going to take quite a narrow view here because because I'm a nerd and this is this is my passion but I'm going to I'm going to put the my training hat on and just say you know that we are seeing people that have done all of that you know preparedness training prior to the duty going I've been putting everyone on the frontline through this what is the duty you know what what are the outcomes and then how does this practically translate to how we can then guide our customers good outcomes particularly when.

[00:35:53] Vulnerability is present as well so you know that's really unpacking not just that top line definition of vulnerability and you know the ways people can be vulnerable.

[00:36:02] But then really surfacing well what do we already know about vulnerability where our gaps and crucially to use that same kind of frame framework as earlier so we've got the war we've got the so what definitely the impact.

[00:36:14] The potential impacts you know what does the harm and the detriment really mean and how does it show up but also that the now what are we going to do what will be different and part of that is again that commitment to.

[00:36:26] Then you know go and find an iron out the issues in those journeys and but also that commitment to.

[00:36:34] Really changing things by leaning in more not kind of shying away when somebody's in a tricky circumstance part of that is a huge focus on how we effectively position signposting you know how do we.

[00:36:48] Because it's one thing to give people in your team a list of you know you can signpost to mind or the Samaritans or you know whoever it might be.

[00:36:56] But it's very different to then work with them to let them know how to normalize signposting how to really encourage their.

[00:37:04] Customers to actually take them up on it you know how to let them know that we matter sorry that they matter and we care and then what we find after that is our team members left feeling.

[00:37:14] More empowered a bit better at the end of the day they feel that they know they've had the training and they're equipped to basically lean in more do the right thing more often and know that they did the best within their scope.

[00:37:26] Of support within their remit to help those customers in their time of need so you know I just also want to point out and I'm sorry to go on and on but in all of our training on vulnerability.

[00:37:38] We always have to acknowledge now I've just been talking about signposting in quite like high level casual way but you know vicarious trauma is real you know and everything that our team members are hearing from our customers.

[00:37:52] Is they're not robots and so we've got to acknowledge that not only are they going to be dealing with our own challenging circumstances but it's a lot to listen to and to come alongside and to be with into.

[00:38:05] You know deeply listen and to ask good questions and to you know effectively signposting to let that customer know that that someone is listening that cares.

[00:38:13] All within as I mentioned that scope of support where we're not a trained listening service.

[00:38:18] We're not you know counts as doctors lawyers politicians so we will always and more and more we're seeing a willingness to your to your question your initial question empty about what's different.

[00:38:28] We're seeing more of a willingness to recognize that in the organizations that we're working with and you know we're just exploring really practical ways that we can improve our well being and our resilience in role.

[00:38:41] And also just just have that kind of common language to debrief more after we've had a challenging contact or difficult call and make sure that we've done that in quote unquote peace time so we've had these conversations in peace time so.

[00:38:55] We know that when when it matters will be equipped.

[00:39:00] Can I add one more thing.

[00:39:02] Thank you just to go on and on you to your point rather to your question around you know what are we seeing in the firms that are doing it well that we work with I'm seeing you know that that frontline.

[00:39:14] First past piece is now well and truly in the rear view mirror they that's a given now that we understand the ways that people can be vulnerable and the ways that we can shop.

[00:39:23] We're seeing a real appetite now to say what else what else can we do how can we support our customers who are experiencing tricky circumstances in even better ways and that's great we've done some.

[00:39:36] Really good tailored workshops recently that are you know absolutely next level when it comes to vulnerability it's just lovely to see the willingness to engage and to just just level up our response because there's always more we can do and learn and yeah that's lovely to see.

[00:39:52] I have to say I find that really really encouraging and positive it was many many moons ago but I worked in as an agent in areas you know for one of the major banks at the time.

[00:40:05] And you're dead right in that there is an impact of dealing in with that and hearing customers and especially if you're empathetic which you want to be.

[00:40:22] You know the end of the end of a shift end of a week was you were done.

[00:40:28] You know I say I don't want to talk for everyone but I know from my own personal experience it was really challenging and I had good managers but it would not have crossed their mind.

[00:40:42] To think about the impact those calls were having on me because everyone was focused on how many calls you were taking what plans you put in place to help customers it wasn't just about recovering day it was to help to help customers and you know but ultimately that is sorting out the books but.

[00:41:02] No at no point would there have been do you think maybe they're taking too many calls and how should we how can we make sure that we're giving them tools and intervening and checking their well being and none of that it you know.

[00:41:15] Wasn't even discussed anywhere to sit to hear this now and what you're talking about now is a really beautiful reminder of our involvement you know.

[00:41:27] Yes.

[00:41:28] A great.

[00:41:29] Huge.

[00:41:30] I think it's been a huge challenge but it's a huge positive challenge I think for those willing to take it on.

[00:41:36] Did you say that the ship hasn't just impacted on the on the on the frontline advisers but it's their managers their managers all the way up almost to senior leadership but through a focus on customer contact because as that kind of requirement and expectation has expanded shift it mutated it can't be that.

[00:41:56] The advisers get trained on on more multi intelligence resilience and better ways of spotting supporting effective you know processing of vulnerability because when they step back in and we ask to find that space for grace for them to be able to.

[00:42:14] You know I'd stop reflect rebuild their resilience well if their team leaders haven't been trained effectively they don't know how to best support and in turn that trauma.

[00:42:25] Asses on you know and so you really needs to be about investment of everyone within that chain and that investment is a key key way of yeah just kind of.

[00:42:39] Ensuring that the shift that are demanded by cost you know by the customer in response to everything that we're going through the outcome is not.

[00:42:48] Empty fatigue.

[00:42:49] It's empowerment and it's an able man and it's a really good keen understanding of operation and the value that they can bring to your business.

[00:42:57] And your customer and on and if you follow it like that I try and put a CFL type out like you said earlier there's always money when you're about to get fined right there's always money when you've been externally all.

[00:43:09] You know it's like I've been in a lot of trouble with the quality that everything's going red.

[00:43:11] The prior to that is not necessarily something that gets put at the top of the list to do.

[00:43:17] You know it's let's let's answer the phone calls as opposed to let's let's develop and cope and train and really empower our online operations until suddenly it's sometimes it's too late so yeah.

[00:43:32] We've moved a long way.

[00:43:34] We need to move but to my mind there's there's a lot more that can be done.

[00:43:40] Yeah, it's interesting because hearing you both talk and just to wind back to you empty what you were saying about your manager just wouldn't have countenance to even considered it.

[00:43:50] You know how your well being ultimately enough what we're talking about at the expense of what's the HT you know what are the other KPIs that we're trying to hit.

[00:43:58] That's moved on and that's not the consumer duty.

[00:44:02] That just I think where we are as a planet and that has to be a good thing right there's a more open acknowledgement around mental health and you know well being and all those things that we might need as humans to thrive in a working environment but to Pete's point that there's more to be done definitely

[00:44:20] but some great green shoots should we call them and some organizations are absolutely nailing this I think aren't they in all different kind of industries and then we all have our common thread of customer contact as well.

[00:44:32] And that's an interesting point because I was going to ask you before we summarize really is it still true.

[00:44:38] It used to be that the FCA as a regulatory body, whether this where they had it where they were heading you'd often see other regulatory bodies kind of follow it not maybe not following that might be unfair but they would be aligning around some of the things that are you seeing that with this.

[00:44:59] It just generally I think that there is a willingness and a one and I think it's a good thing for regulators to be more aligned and so if we see good practice in one industry why shouldn't that feed out to other industries and similarly with the FCA when they make a recommendation to one sector within the industry what we do see is that that tends to become kind of their expectation for other areas as well.

[00:45:25] So I think that has to be a good thing particularly when it comes to you know the fair treatment of our most vulnerable communities as well as it has to be good.

[00:45:34] And I mean the idea is that we're all doing this so well and we're all kind of having this inclusive design and we all know how to show up with empathy and seek good outcomes for people that we can all pack up shop and go home really but see we'll see where we go.

[00:45:51] I would add to that picking up on your point about following.

[00:45:55] Yeah, I'm more controversial.

[00:45:57] Yes.

[00:45:58] Yeah, I think they are following.

[00:45:59] I think it's quite reactive still it ends in for some industry regulators.

[00:46:04] You know the people are missing those to not call out some of the headlines that we've seen out there in the world around utilities.

[00:46:10] You know, we're starting to see movement.

[00:46:13] So my challenge will almost be come on let's let's not wait for the FCA to stick a flag in the well.

[00:46:21] How about you guys start to put new and better standards for your customers.

[00:46:27] You know that actually turn up in the second be punitive and compliance focused be more open more collaborative over communicate demands and requirements and actually start to build that report with the FCA.

[00:46:40] With the companies that you regulate and tell us what would look like right as opposed to just that look pretty good.

[00:46:49] We should have a bit of that, you know, because I think we see that too much still, you know, and if the FCA in the front end of the comment then and everything that's training behind it means that there's detriment at every point until people catch up to what's been set as a standard of what could look like.

[00:47:08] I love it and this you can see why I enjoyed working with Pete and Helen so much because it was.

[00:47:16] These conversations were had very, very often and believe me, maybe we'll do it one day.

[00:47:22] Well, if we add alcohol into the mix then they get even they get even more fun.

[00:47:27] But for people you guys I know truly believe in what you do and it you come full guns blazing to work with with clients and really kind of again do all the things that you've spoken about here.

[00:47:44] Where can people find you and how can they engage with you?

[00:47:49] Will you be at events soon or should they just contact you on LinkedIn go to the website?

[00:47:55] What's the all of the above?

[00:47:57] All of the above.

[00:47:59] Yeah, so what's it the CCMA conference which is October as they start about October but generally yeah, you'll find is regularly talking about this stuff on LinkedIn.

[00:48:11] Helen continues a kind of magical mystery tour around the UK delivering this training to the more forward thinking companies who are investing in this.

[00:48:21] And essentially if you want to be in that you better get in soon because you know, I've got to start streaming up but yeah, LinkedIn drop was a message.

[00:48:29] Just while a chat we're not there to just sell well I am more than Helen.

[00:48:35] Let's be completely transparent about that.

[00:48:37] I'm very happy with myself on how many people are buying these training products because they are not just from a moral standpoint of it's important but it's making this money.

[00:48:48] Thanks very much.

[00:48:49] But you know, you can find us anywhere essentially and we love to chat like this about just about anything in everything contact center related.

[00:48:58] And also it'd be great for anyone who's got either a view that aligns or what are the challenges are thinking because that's the most important thing.

[00:49:07] We want to collaborate and improve our shared understanding how we as an industry of these challenges.

[00:49:14] And Helen is there going to be a tour t-shirt?

[00:49:16] Oh absolutely. I'm working now. No, there absolutely won't be.

[00:49:22] That many locations is more like a long dress.

[00:49:26] A cloak of many many locations.

[00:49:29] Well, I know you guys believe in what you do and it's a pleasure to do this and talk to you again.

[00:49:35] And I invite anyone listening to get to know Helen and Pete because you'll benefit from it and I know from firsthand experience.

[00:49:44] Thank you both for coming on.

[00:49:47] Cheers and tears. It's been a pleasure.

[00:49:49] Pleasure is always it.