#202 - Sarah Hunt of DDC Os - lndustry Legend

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap. I am joined by industry legend and my friend Sarah Hunt. It's great to have Sarah on. Everyone knows Sarah and loves her so this should be good. Sarah, welcome.

[00:00:15] Sarah Hunt of DDC Os – Hi, welcome. Bloody hell. I'll have that introduction everywhere. Thank you very much.

[00:00:19] Just play it. Just play it before you walk into a room.

[00:00:23] Sarah Hunt of DDC Os – This is what Martin said. In fact, you should endorse me on LinkedIn. I'll have that.

[00:00:30] Now, it's been a while. You've come on many times, but it's been a while since you've been on and you've had gone through, you've had a lot of changes and you've been doing loads and loads of stuff. But what's been the last couple of years? What's been going on?

[00:00:46] Yeah, so the last couple of years, I've probably stepped aside from operational management. So, you know, same as you, my history is managing contact centres started on the phones,

[00:00:58] which every one of your guests has probably said at some point. And so, yeah, probably I would say for the last like five or seven years,

[00:01:05] I've kind of moved away from operational management into kind of industry stuff. So a bit like you,

[00:01:12] kind of really working with inside the contact centre industry, work with some industry bodies,

[00:01:18] but also kind of that whole piece around making it a career of choice and elevate, you know, the people that are doing some good work.

[00:01:25] So I've done some stuff with the forum and Green Bean around elevating talent and experience and making it a job of choice.

[00:01:33] And we all know that it can be an absolute fabulous career, can't it?

[00:01:37] Because we both had one and we know loads of other people I have. And really just, I mean, I've been really,

[00:01:43] really fortunate enough and privileged enough that I've been able to work with great people in the industry.

[00:01:48] So whether that short term consultancy store for, at the moment I've joined DDC Outsourcing and you know,

[00:01:54] these guys really work really well. A great organisation, still family run, great, great team.

[00:02:01] And it's all about people for me as well. So to work with some great people has been amazing,

[00:02:04] but I just love what they do. You know, it's really about helping customers and adding value to kind of operations.

[00:02:11] So yeah, so I'm with those guys at the moment.

[00:02:14] It's a great fit actually. I was over the moon when you said that's where you were going.

[00:02:20] Because you're right, they're people focused, but also through things like DDC discusses,

[00:02:25] there's a genuine passion for the industry and a genuine passion for trying to look at things differently

[00:02:32] and to be constantly evolving. So you being there is just a match made, a match made in heaven.

[00:02:40] Because like you say, it's interesting when you were talking about that change and what you do is for the industry

[00:02:46] and trying to portray us in a good light. And it did make me think, you know, the other day,

[00:02:52] I heard some of my family say to some of their friends, they couldn't tell you what I do.

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:59] For a job. You know, it's something to do with contact centres. And that about sums it up.

[00:03:05] Yeah. My kids are absolutely the same. They're always like, oh yeah, we never know what mum does.

[00:03:09] She's just out and about and does stuff. We don't know what it is. We know what dad does,

[00:03:13] but we don't know what mum does. And yeah, and it's the same, isn't it?

[00:03:16] And yeah, I suppose when you're at the start of your career, you kind of,

[00:03:22] maybe that's not an avenue you want to go in, but what a great avenue it can be.

[00:03:26] And I think the more we can talk about that and bring it to light and show the opportunities.

[00:03:31] I mean, it is great, isn't it? It's exactly what you're doing with the team leader community,

[00:03:34] isn't it? Is kind of bringing skills and experience to that, that overlooked part of the role,

[00:03:41] isn't it? And the organisation.

[00:03:43] I think you're right. I think, you know, when you first start on the phones, frontline advisor,

[00:03:49] manager, then team leader, then contact centre manager, whatever, you kind of, you love it,

[00:03:55] but that's your world. The moment you go off the ranch, you suddenly realise there is so much more,

[00:04:04] you know, that's why I've been trying to really push for team leaders to go to things like the expo,

[00:04:10] you know, because when you see what's out there and you see you, you know, where there is so much

[00:04:17] opportunity and so many interesting things happen, it's quite hard when you're in your contact centre

[00:04:24] and it's just, you're constantly on the go. Things are constantly changing and it's a be all

[00:04:29] and end all. And you don't often realise what else is going on.

[00:04:33] Yeah. No, I remember it in the days when I was in operations, I really got out and about. I really

[00:04:39] got to any of the events or any of that kind of stuff. You were a hundred miles an hour doing what you

[00:04:43] were doing. The only time you ever got a chance to sit and reflect was usually at your end of year

[00:04:47] review, wasn't it? Where you kind of go, look at all the great stuff we've done. I can't believe it.

[00:04:51] But yeah, you know, a big advocate for getting out and about to events and doing stuff, meeting people,

[00:04:57] networking, just listening to what people have got to say. You know, I love it.

[00:05:01] You know, and the more we can do with that, the more we can open the doors for everybody else to

[00:05:08] kind of come in and see what a great industry it is.

[00:05:11] A hundred percent. Yeah, we do know. And it is a shame when you still hear people who don't know

[00:05:19] the industry that, you know, some of the things they're saying are just wrong. You know, we know

[00:05:24] what a great industry is. And I guess for you now, do you get the best of both worlds? So you out

[00:05:29] and about talking to clients, potential clients, people in the industry, but you also get the

[00:05:36] opportunity to go and see the operation and spend time with operations as well.

[00:05:42] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And at the moment, I'm the lead judge for the Northeast Contact Center

[00:05:46] Awards as well. So we're just about in the round two of judging. So we're going to get out and about on

[00:05:51] the road and visiting all the shortlist candidates, obviously mainly in the Northeast. But there's some

[00:05:56] big brands over in the Northeast, actually. It's a hotbed for contact centers. So I'm going out and

[00:06:02] about because things change so much, don't they? You kind of, you've got to keep up yourself. You've

[00:06:08] got to keep your own knowledge and industry knowledge up, haven't you? So it's great for me to be able

[00:06:12] to get, you know, privilege access to those organizations and see what they're doing and be

[00:06:18] able to benchmark them against other organizations, you know, and then celebrate them on the other side

[00:06:23] of it as well. Well, well done you. And I know that those awards, like you say, it's a hotbed

[00:06:28] for contact centers, but I know those awards are really well run, great entrance. And also it is

[00:06:35] worth saying you are doing an inordinate amount of work outside of your day job, right? To get all of

[00:06:43] this done. It's quite a commitment, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, it is that bit, isn't it?

[00:06:47] I know it sounds so cheesy, doesn't it? But I love it. And I want to kind of give back the 30

[00:06:53] years experience or service almost. I feel like it's that voluntary service bit. And it's just

[00:06:58] amazing meeting everyone and understanding. And also, because I have been out of operations for a

[00:07:03] long time, you know, it should move so fast. You kind of have to keep up with pace, especially

[00:07:08] technology. And, you know, it's moving at a massive pace, isn't it? I mean, I remember years ago,

[00:07:14] we used to say nothing ever changes in the contact center. You know, people used to say,

[00:07:17] the death of voice and all of that kind of stuff. Well, actually, I've got to say,

[00:07:21] being out and about over the last couple of years, I think it's really, really changed the

[00:07:25] industry. You know, I think all of those levers and elevation that we said was going to happen

[00:07:31] year and the get out is starting to happen. You know, the technology is really starting to shift.

[00:07:36] You know, customers are properly self-serving, you know, operations are becoming smaller or more

[00:07:42] complex. You know, roles are changing. All of that is happening now. Whereas before it was,

[00:07:48] it was, we were talking about it, but it wasn't really happening. Like you can see it now.

[00:07:53] And it's kind of now how we then prepare for that next phase of it, I think.

[00:07:58] That's really interesting. Well, I think it's fascinating because you are dead right,

[00:08:04] you know, that kind of, not full warning because it makes it sound negative, but you would go to

[00:08:10] events 10, 15 years ago and it was all about this technology's coming and it's going to have a big

[00:08:16] impact. And then you're right, nothing really changed. Certainly not for the majority of people

[00:08:21] in the room, but now you're dead right. It's kind of dizzyingly quick with just the sheer volume of

[00:08:30] things that can make improvements. Do you think then one of the key challenges for centers is

[00:08:39] how they plan this, right? Because it's, you know, it, there are, there is so much opportunity.

[00:08:45] There is so much change in, you know, not just technology, but our understanding of customers,

[00:08:51] our teams, processes, you know, it feels like we've, we've taken a big quantum leap forward

[00:08:59] in terms of our competency and our professionalism allied to the technological growth. Coordinating

[00:09:07] that's going to be key, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And it's all about people,

[00:09:14] isn't it? It's leveraging your people power on the back of your technology because technology now,

[00:09:19] you know, remember back in the day, you buy a big stack and you wouldn't know how to use it. Now

[00:09:23] it's like, you know, off the shelf, it's easily implemented. It's kind of easily applied. So,

[00:09:30] you know, now it's about taking your people on the journey that they're able to kind of,

[00:09:34] you know, you really enhance that people power and their skills and leverage that alongside

[00:09:40] everything else, I think. And what was interesting, you and I were at the same conference last week,

[00:09:45] weren't we? The Centrical Conference where the forum shared some of their research

[00:09:49] that they're doing. And the big stat that stuck with me, and I hope I get it right,

[00:09:54] is that 80% of organizations know that change is coming and they've got to prepare their frontline

[00:10:01] team managers, everyone else, and their, you know, leaders to prepare for this.

[00:10:05] But then when they asked the other question, which was basically how many of you are preparing

[00:10:09] people, only like 10, 15% were saying that they were doing it. So there, there you go. That's

[00:10:15] that we know change is coming in. We know it's at a massive pace and it is, you can see it,

[00:10:20] but yet what are we doing to prepare leaders and, you know, the frontline and everyone else? What are we

[00:10:25] doing about changing roles and building and training and development and coaching in order to get

[00:10:31] people to walk along at the same rate as the change?

[00:10:34] I'm sure you have got, I know we've, we kind of all got stories of finding out that company,

[00:10:40] the company you work for has got a new project, a new service, finding out the day it's live,

[00:10:47] you know, and all of a sudden having to get your teams to follow a different opening or do,

[00:10:54] make a different, do something different with our service, with customers. Five minutes before we turn,

[00:11:00] you know, we would speak into customers. Yeah. Or it'd be done overnight, wouldn't it? Over the

[00:11:06] weekend and Monday morning, you come in and everything has changed. Yeah. I mean, I think,

[00:11:12] God, those are the days that are gone, aren't they? You know, hopefully. Yeah. So what I've seen is

[00:11:16] kind of, you can see that it's, you know, technology is implemented, you know, much better

[00:11:20] nowadays, but you're right. I still don't think we're preparing that frontline and that team manager

[00:11:25] and you are people like you in organizations are, but it's, is that real bit about it is going to

[00:11:31] change, you know, it is becoming more complex. There is a requirement for different skills than there

[00:11:36] was when we started on the phones, you know, and, and how then are we identifying, recruiting, training,

[00:11:44] developing and, you know, and enhancing people's career on the back of it.

[00:11:48] Do you think the role has got harder, like operations?

[00:11:52] Oh yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:57] How come?

[00:11:58] I think the role has got more challenging. I think technology's got more diverse and, and interesting.

[00:12:03] I think, you know, there's obviously post COVID things have changed massively, you know, all of that.

[00:12:10] And we know that how working from home or hybrids or whatever you, you want to call it flexible

[00:12:15] working nowadays that you might not see your team for a while. How do you get support at all of that?

[00:12:20] I think, you know, and organizations have got like a tough job, isn't it? You know, to manage and all of that.

[00:12:26] Yeah. So the more help that they can get, the better, isn't it? Even whether that's through technology or

[00:12:33] outsourcing partners or anything like that, you know, the more an organization can look externally for support

[00:12:39] and guidance is better, isn't it?

[00:12:41] Oh, you have to. I think you're dead right. It's definitely got harder because there's far more things to consider.

[00:12:47] You know, there's, you know, we, when I was active in operations, even at a kind of junior level,

[00:12:55] we had no idea around vulnerability and how different customers might show up and indeed how our colleagues

[00:13:05] might show up and, you know, we're a far more diverse workforce and we're better, we're better for it.

[00:13:11] But it's certainly more challenging, I think, for team leaders and contact center managers than it's,

[00:13:18] than it's ever been. But can I ask you, if you, you know, you're doing judging now and it must be great

[00:13:25] to see what people are, what people are doing and you, you really get under the bonnet of some great

[00:13:32] organizations, right? And some great initiatives. Are you, does that color your thinking around,

[00:13:39] where are you at in terms of our industry? Are you positive about it and the future? Or do you think

[00:13:46] we've got some work to do? Where is your thinking on when it comes to our industry?

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] I'm, I'm still really positive about it because I think there's some fantastic people out there and

[00:13:56] some, some organizations and some, and some, you know, great opportunity to leverage some great tech.

[00:14:02] But I, you know, and I think we're doing that right. You know, we can see organizations,

[00:14:06] they really want to embrace AI and they really want to embrace that whole technology piece and the,

[00:14:11] they're hungry for what it can do and how it can be deployed and all of that kind of, you know,

[00:14:16] how it can really add value to the people or the customer.

[00:14:18] But it, I still think we need to invest in the people bit of it is, you know, it really is all

[00:14:24] about people power and how they, then you could take them on the journey and how you're going to

[00:14:30] leverage that going forward. And that, you know, and I think that's the key for me is that I'm

[00:14:37] still dead positive and I love it. You know, we, we always talk about this, don't we? We love the

[00:14:41] industry. So it's hard to be anything but positive about it, isn't it? And you, and you do get to see so

[00:14:46] much great stuff out there. Um, but I really think we've got a job on our hands now. And, you know,

[00:14:52] those stats said it is to really prepare the people to, on the next phase.

[00:14:57] Well, those people that are being prepared, even if they're frontline colleagues, are the leaders of

[00:15:04] the future, right? Predominantly, aren't they?

[00:15:06] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. It's that mostly leaders come from that conversation, aren't they?

[00:15:11] Where they've started somewhere on the phones or started somewhere else within the organization.

[00:15:15] But yeah. Yeah. And they're the best leaders, aren't they? Cause they've seen it all, done it all, bought

[00:15:20] a t-shirt.

[00:15:21] Yes. Yeah, they are. They, they were, and I think as well, they kind of understand it helps with the

[00:15:27] decision-making, right? Cause you kind of understand you can, I don't think you'll ever forget

[00:15:32] if you've, if you've been on the phones for any length of time, you will never forget it.

[00:15:36] Yeah. Yeah. You'll never forget just how, how rewarding it is, but also how tough it can be.

[00:15:43] Yeah. You know, I'd like to say I was committed, enthusiastic. I wanted to progress, but by the

[00:15:49] end of the shit, end of the week, you know, it's, it was hard, right? It's hard to show up positively

[00:15:54] to every single customer that's, that's coming through. And you, you mentioned earlier, you did,

[00:15:58] you did some stuff with Greenbean, but I'm really interested about something you guys are doing

[00:16:03] now with DDC outsourcing, which is called Elevate. Can you tell me about that?

[00:16:08] Yeah. Well, actually it goes on really nicely to what we've just been talking about,

[00:16:12] cause it's basically leveraging all of the fantastic skill you've got all across the business

[00:16:16] and, and really turning it into what we class as kind of, you know, that strategy in an innovation

[00:16:23] bit is kind of taking it out to the market and say, we've got some great cohorts of skill

[00:16:28] and experience here in this business and we can help you do lots of different things. So,

[00:16:33] you know, it's, it, that's whether it's in CX or OPEX or, you know, just the people in

[00:16:39] engagement bit that you were saying, you know, there's, there's some great experience, 35 years

[00:16:43] worth of experience and like data and automation as well. What I didn't know about DDC outsourcing

[00:16:49] is they've got a data business as well in Manchester as part of the group.

[00:16:53] That Serbia is a data hub and it's one of our near shore offerings, which is all about data

[00:17:00] and insights and, you know, really turning the dial on that. I mean, and just back to the

[00:17:05] conversation we just had, how much experience and skill you've got in the front line. You know,

[00:17:09] we've had recently one of the advisors sharing some new coding. Now I don't understand all this,

[00:17:16] it's way beyond me. Some new coding that, that in, in one of our systems and one of our partnering

[00:17:21] systems that has changed and revolutionized the system and took like days of processing out of

[00:17:27] it and loads and loads of cost. So yeah. And that's just by making some, you know, some clever

[00:17:33] coding changes and probably downplaying it because I don't understand it, but I mean, you know,

[00:17:38] it's incredible stuff, isn't it? And that's somebody who's on, on the front line of that particular

[00:17:43] campaign going, I think we can improve this and I know how to do some coding and stuff.

[00:17:47] And you have to have the culture, right? For somebody to feel comfortable to be able to say,

[00:17:52] Hey, I've got a skillset. I've identified something I can, I think we can massively improve.

[00:17:58] And then the benefits to you, your clients are enormous. I love it.

[00:18:03] Oh, and this person has been working with all the C-suite of that technology or, you know, I mean,

[00:18:08] right all the way through it, you know, and you're right. We've, you know, we've recognized that

[00:18:14] opportunity, that talent and, and, you know, put it into force. And now they're working with

[00:18:18] that technology provider to make some major changes. So yeah. But that's happening all over

[00:18:23] the business, isn't it? It's happening. So we're, yeah, we're just trying to make sure that we invest

[00:18:29] in our people. It's all about that, that investing in those people as well and giving them a chance to

[00:18:34] use those skills and experience as well with, with our customers and partners.

[00:18:38] If I was a potential client, I could just use you guys to, the data centers was, was interesting.

[00:18:48] That is, I would, what, give you the data and you would help find insights. How does that work?

[00:18:55] Well, we've, same thing. We've done customer experience stuff. We've done, we'll do some

[00:18:59] data processing. We'll do some data technology stuff, you know, data transformation, all of it

[00:19:04] really. And we will know more about your customers than you might know yourself. Yeah. But then we've

[00:19:10] got, you know, you know, as usual, as you expect from a BPO, we've got the whole bit around customer

[00:19:16] services. We do over 25 languages. We're actually based in the Philippines and in North America. And

[00:19:23] we've got Bosnia and Serbia as well, which are language hubs for us, which, you know, really service

[00:19:29] all of our European and UK clients for languages. So yeah, some, some great skills over there as

[00:19:35] well. And I know that's interesting because we talk about careers in the UK for contact centers

[00:19:42] in places like Bosnia and Serbia. It's, it's a career of choice. Yeah. You know, maybe not so much

[00:19:49] here in the UK, is it? And we've said this before, haven't we? But over there it is, you know, you,

[00:19:54] you, you've got people who maybe went to university and did a law degree or, you know, something like

[00:19:59] that. But the idea eventually was to always come into customer services and you, and use, you know,

[00:20:05] the, the law degrees almost like the kind of like the enjoyment bit. We've studied this because we

[00:20:09] like law, but actually our career is always going to be about servicing customers and working in that

[00:20:14] kind of environment. So you find that everybody's got a lot, you know, is, is educated degree level

[00:20:20] and come from lots of different backgrounds, which brings that kind of diversity to the whole approach.

[00:20:26] Well, you, you just, you hit the nail on the head earlier with the skill sets within our operational

[00:20:32] teams that could, you know, create and engender huge improvements. It is just creating that workplace

[00:20:42] where they feel comfortable enough to tell you, to, to share their ideas. But I think we've talked

[00:20:48] about this before. I found the same in, um, in Turkey when I was there, both in Istanbul and,

[00:20:55] uh, other parts of Turkey, especially the Eastern part where working in a contact center was an

[00:21:01] aspirational thing. You know, they, they, it was when you were at, so I worked in one and the contact

[00:21:10] center had been purposefully built near the university. And people within the university was

[00:21:17] saying, that's where I want to work because they knew they'd have a good career. You know, there were,

[00:21:24] there's so many routes for progression that you're never bored. You got great, you make great friends

[00:21:30] for, for life. The pay is good. Yeah. You know, so that what's not, what's not to like. I think it's,

[00:21:36] we still have a job to do on that front. Help people, you know, that don't know the industry,

[00:21:43] know what it's really like. Yeah. And if you met some of our teams, they'd be saying the same thing

[00:21:47] as what we said. You know, we started on the phones, you know, we came out of university, found

[00:21:51] this job and, and, you know, we started on the phones and now, you know, we're running the whole

[00:21:55] site or the whole contact center, you know, cause they have had good careers and, you know,

[00:22:01] I've been able to do that.

[00:22:03] And of course you get to work with Katie, who's already been on the podcast and I bet you two

[00:22:09] are dynamite.

[00:22:11] Well, it's back to what we said, isn't it? About people, isn't it? I knew Katie a little bit before

[00:22:16] I joined DDC and she's just a ball of energy, isn't she? She's fantastic. And you know what I love

[00:22:22] about Katie actually, and I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, is she reached out to me about two

[00:22:27] years ago and said, I'm new to this industry. And I don't really know many people, but I really want

[00:22:34] to get involved in it and I love it. And she said, oh, so I'd really appreciate if we could have a call

[00:22:39] and we just jumped on a phone call because, because again, I like meeting new people and I want to

[00:22:44] pass on, you know, why wouldn't I want to help somebody? Cause loads of people have helped me in

[00:22:47] the past anyway. And we just hit it off and I just love her enthusiasm for our industry, even though

[00:22:54] she's not maybe had the traditional kind of career path to it. And she, you know, she just

[00:22:59] is thirsty to learn about, you know, customer service and all that. So it's great working with her.

[00:23:05] And I would love to be a fly on the wall if you, Katie and Jade get together. Jade's also been on

[00:23:11] the podcast. I mean, I can't imagine that no one would get a word in edgeways.

[00:23:17] Well, I listen, I consider myself as somebody who can talk a lot, but I'm the quietest person in the room.

[00:23:22] Definitely are. Yeah.

[00:23:26] That's that passion, isn't it? You guys are so passionate about wanting to make a difference.

[00:23:32] So, you know, it's not just a, it's not just a job. Your events are always really well run.

[00:23:38] I've had the privilege of spending quite a bit of time with the teams down there as well. And

[00:23:43] it's just brilliant. What surprised me actually was how many people had left and then come back

[00:23:51] because you know, you're like, they've gained a load of skills and think, oh, actually I could use

[00:23:54] these elsewhere. The grass isn't greener. They go like, oh, I'm going to come back, you know?

[00:23:59] Yeah. Oh yeah. We've had people, we've still got people that have been there 30 years or,

[00:24:03] you know, started with it, grew up with it, that kind of stuff, which is fabulous because it's

[00:24:07] amazing when you, when you knew and you want to know something, there's always somebody around,

[00:24:11] but yeah, it's, it is one of those organizations and, you know, and, and we talked about this

[00:24:17] actually a while ago, wasn't it? So, so many other BPOs are joining forces and creating these

[00:24:23] almost super BPOs. And I think DDC is still in that space where it's very family run and agile and,

[00:24:31] you know, it's all about adding value and all of that kind of stuff. So I think, I think they're in

[00:24:37] a great place at the moment to really succeed and kind of add loads of value to customers.

[00:24:43] It's such an interesting, you know, we, we've spoken many, many times our backgrounds are the

[00:24:48] same in terms of, I, I think I cut my teeth really in how, in outsourcing, you know, you've got to be

[00:24:55] good. You constantly trying to impress your clients and keep, and keep them. And that kind of really

[00:25:03] sharpens the, sharpens the sword, but it's such an interesting time. You mentioned that there's a lot

[00:25:10] of mergers and acquisitions and, you know, you only need to scroll through LinkedIn and you've got

[00:25:16] different people talking about different parts of, of the world. And that's why I really value

[00:25:24] the innovation behind DDC. You know, DDC discusses joining the academic world and our world is brilliant.

[00:25:31] It's brilliant. That's, I think, evidence of what you've got to think a bit differently to,

[00:25:38] to survive.

[00:25:40] Yeah. Yeah. And it's a great program that you'll know that you've been to a few months about bringing,

[00:25:45] you know, academia into, and psychology and all of that kind of stuff into, you know, what,

[00:25:51] what you're doing as an organization. And then, and then for us, we're kind of distilling all that

[00:25:55] information and then putting it back into our teams that deliver to our customers or,

[00:26:00] or the opposite is kind of through Elevate is kind of try and get that message back out there. So it,

[00:26:06] you know, it's not just a place where you come and listen to the academics. It's one that you can

[00:26:11] really kind of operationalize it and then, and kind of use, use it. Yeah. So I love that. It's a great

[00:26:18] program and it is something very different as well, I think.

[00:26:21] Totally. And it, it kind of feeding that back into your teams in order to help them

[00:26:26] gain, gain, gain something new, work on, work on their communication, work on the psychology behind

[00:26:33] what we do. Those kinds of small improvements, those marginal gains, aren't they? They're called,

[00:26:39] but that, that's, that's so necessary when you think, um, of how competitive the market is. Now,

[00:26:46] I know you guys cover loads of different industries, but you are seen as subject matter experts,

[00:26:55] certainly in utilities and retail to the point that people are just coming to you for advice.

[00:27:03] Yeah. Yeah. And we've also got like other programs where we, we are working with,

[00:27:08] and what do you call experts, like educational experts and, you know, people like thought

[00:27:13] leadership experts in those industries and sectors so that we're able to really kind of challenge

[00:27:19] ourselves and ask the right questions. Are we doing the right thing in that sector? You know,

[00:27:23] should we be looking at different ways that have, or how the world is emerging through that,

[00:27:28] or what we should be investing in from a technology point of view? So we're really trying to challenge

[00:27:32] ourselves as well at the same point, which I think is good, you know, so that we are giving,

[00:27:36] we are building the right proposition. It is the right thing for our customers and our people.

[00:27:41] Can I ask you, cause you, you are successful and you're super well respected and well liked in the,

[00:27:47] in the industry. What, what would you sort of pin that on? What's been the, the thing that's kept

[00:27:55] you going? Or if you were to talk to, if you were mentoring a group of people that were starting out

[00:28:00] for the first time, what would you say would be some of the things, your skills and experience,

[00:28:05] do you know what I mean? What's the... Yeah. Oh, that's a really tough one, isn't it?

[00:28:09] Now you're asking me to do that end of year review, where you're like, oh, pretty.

[00:28:13] It was been far. What's gone well for you this year?

[00:28:16] I, I don't know. I just think I'm forever curious. I think I do like to, you know, I'd love,

[00:28:22] I love people, you know, that's why I started in, in the industry. Cause when I joined my first

[00:28:28] contact center, it was a thousand seat contact center. It was like, there was something going on

[00:28:34] every single day, though. It, you know, it was just noise and I love, I love all that. So that kind

[00:28:40] of kept me in it and has kept me kind of curious all the way through it. And, you know, I love, I love

[00:28:47] networking. I love sharing my knowledge and, you know, I love meeting people. Yeah. I think it's that.

[00:28:55] I would say it's always difficult to talk about yourself, but I would say from, I don't know how

[00:29:00] long we've known each other. It's a long time, but, um, just how you relationships are super

[00:29:08] important to you, aren't they? And you're so, so positive, not just about the industry, but meeting

[00:29:14] other people and genuinely asking how they are. And you, you know, you're, you're interested.

[00:29:21] How, um, but how do you kind of keep, how do you keep going? Cause like all of us, we've all had

[00:29:27] times when we've been like super challenged in our, in our career, you know? So how, what kind of,

[00:29:35] how'd you get away from it or what do you, what keeps you kind of sane?

[00:29:39] I suppose what keeps me going with everyone is that I, I genuinely like, I would class myself as

[00:29:45] one of those people that, you know, needs to be around people and likes that kind of contact.

[00:29:51] So, you know, if I haven't spoke to you for a while, you'll know this, I'll be picking up

[00:29:54] the phone going, hi, Liam, what's going on? You know, so.

[00:29:56] Often when you're doing it with dog walking.

[00:29:58] Yeah. Yeah. Or we're usually when we're dog walking, isn't it? We'll go, what's going on?

[00:30:01] Yeah. And that, that's kind of, yeah, I'm just really, my, I'm energised by people. I think,

[00:30:07] I think that's my thing and doing the right thing as well, you know? And so, so joining

[00:30:11] DDC has been great because that's the kind of role it is. It's all about partnership and

[00:30:15] relationships management. So it's, it's allowing me to like really kind of leverage my strengths,

[00:30:21] I think. Yeah. But the other thing that keeps me sane, if you're asking me personally, it would

[00:30:26] be dog walking as we, as we both know, cause we've both got Labradors as well. And that takes

[00:30:31] a lot of dog walking, doesn't it?

[00:30:33] It does.

[00:30:33] Yeah.

[00:30:33] Far too much.

[00:30:34] Yeah. And I'm kind of in that really, it's kind of very, what's the word? Everybody's

[00:30:39] doing it almost. It's a middle-aged hobby or whatever of outdoor cold water swimming.

[00:30:45] I love it.

[00:30:46] Oh really?

[00:30:47] Actually this weekend, there's kind of a body of water near me, like a little lodgy lake

[00:30:51] that the farmer's allowing us to go in. So we go in every week and which is quite nice.

[00:30:56] That keeps me a little bit sane as well.

[00:30:58] And you're going to keep doing that all through the winter?

[00:31:01] Yeah, that's the best bit. Everyone says that the winter's the best bit because that's

[00:31:05] the bit where you get the cold water.

[00:31:06] I do like it. I must admit, I do like an ice bar. I'm not sure about swimming, but I'd give

[00:31:11] anything a go.

[00:31:12] Yeah, you would. You'd love this. Yeah. Next time you're up the North, we'll take you.

[00:31:16] Well, I feel like I should become an honorary Northerner. There's so much happening up there.

[00:31:20] Yes, there is actually. And we're spending a lot of time enhancing stuff that's going

[00:31:25] on in the North actually, because there tend to have been previously a lot happening down

[00:31:30] in London. And you know, if you go down to London, if you're from the North or like anywhere

[00:31:35] like North of Birmingham, it's like a full day and a half out of the office, isn't it?

[00:31:40] So I'm starting to see more and more stuff happening in the North and the Northeast, which

[00:31:43] is great stuff. Because as we said, it's like a hotbed for contact centres, all of it,

[00:31:48] isn't it? Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, you know, Birmingham, Sheffield, you know, all of that area.

[00:31:55] Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's all, it's real kind of centres of excellence where there is this

[00:32:05] kind of like collab, I've always felt like there's this collaborative competition. You know, it's

[00:32:09] like you do, you're potentially competing with people, but you're quite happy to meet with them

[00:32:13] at events and talk about challenges and things that might be working well. Maybe you don't

[00:32:18] tell them all of the things.

[00:32:21] You don't give all of the crown jewels away, but yeah. Yeah. I know. And that's back to our

[00:32:27] industry again, being a great place, isn't it? And you kind of, and the whole, what's

[00:32:31] that thing where you're saying you be nice to people because you might meet them all the

[00:32:34] way down or whatever that, because it is, and people move around a lot, don't they, in

[00:32:38] our industry? So, you know, it's great to keep relationships going. And nothing's never

[00:32:43] that, you know, sacred that you can't tell anyone, is it?

[00:32:47] No. And I think that's the other thing as well is that you've always, you've always

[00:32:51] struck me as keeping things in perspective, right? You kind of have a positive, a positive

[00:32:56] outlook. And without that, it's going to be difficult to succeed in our industry, I think,

[00:33:01] because if you didn't laugh, you'd cry.

[00:33:03] Yeah, exactly. And we have done that before though, haven't we? There's been times where

[00:33:07] we've done that. But yeah, I mean, back to what we said before, isn't it? The pace of

[00:33:10] change is incredible now. It really is. I don't know about you, but I'm really feeling over

[00:33:16] the last couple of years that it's just massively accelerated. So, you know, we've got a duty

[00:33:21] akin to what the people that work in our industry, that we help them along, isn't it? Whatever

[00:33:25] that might be, whether that's in your internal organisation or whether you seek external support.

[00:33:32] 100%. I think one of the biggest misses that people make is when they're considering purchasing

[00:33:38] or kind of creating or investing in certainly technological advances that are going to have

[00:33:44] an impact on frontline workers, that they don't ask the frontline workers what they need,

[00:33:52] what works well, what doesn't work well. Things as, you know, the danger is you do things that make

[00:33:58] people feel like they're being, things are being done to them. You know, I think we've all been in

[00:34:02] that position where we've been told, oh, we're getting a new bit of kit and you've got to now

[00:34:07] do some of your work in here on this bit of kit and keep it in this one. And you're like, what,

[00:34:12] why are we doing this? Yeah. Oh, this was a good idea. Exactly. Yeah. And more recently,

[00:34:18] the last time I did a transformation project, which was a co-op insurance, we had a great way of working,

[00:34:26] actually. It was all under, you know, the agile ways of working. We had like a small cohort team,

[00:34:34] all from the business that was, so we'd have someone from finance, from product, from marketing,

[00:34:40] from operations, which was me. And then you'd have somebody else from maybe the back office,

[00:34:46] business, you know, and you'd all come together. So whenever you were discussing some part,

[00:34:50] some change, whether that was the technology change or process change or, you know, a people

[00:34:55] change, you got, you had it from every lens, you know, it was everybody's viewpoint where about this

[00:35:00] is the customer lens, but also this is the lens that commercially aren't from a finance point of

[00:35:05] view. And then you made decisions on the back of that. And if, you know, it was a great way of

[00:35:09] working, the project was really successful. So, you know, maybe we need to start thinking about

[00:35:13] doing more of that. And as part of that, your front line are in it because other people talking

[00:35:18] to your customers.

[00:35:19] 100%. I mean, you're right. Actually, it's really exciting time. There's so much choice.

[00:35:23] There's so many ways you can make improvements to things that maybe have been a challenge for a

[00:35:28] while. It's just about the key now, I think is about selecting the right thing or the right

[00:35:33] partners, right? Who can actually help you do it. So you don't have to make rookie mistakes

[00:35:38] because you're going to be working with people that know what they're doing.

[00:35:42] Yeah. Yeah. They've made all the mistakes for you, isn't it? Yeah. And that's why it's so

[00:35:46] important to partner with people, isn't it? You know, it's to leverage their experience and their

[00:35:51] knowledge and, you know, and grow with them as well. You know, we're really keen that all our

[00:35:57] partners, we add value to it. We work like with the team as an extension of the team, you know,

[00:36:03] we try stuff out. We'll, you know, we'll experiment. That's for us to do that. And,

[00:36:09] you know, the business concentrates on what they call businesses.

[00:36:13] Well, you're, like I said at the start, you're in the right place because you're a lovely person.

[00:36:17] They are all good people there as well. I'm going to say as well, if you ever want to know what's

[00:36:23] going on in the industry, right? There's no one better than Sarah to find out what's going on.

[00:36:29] That's always my first port of call. Like what's happening? What have you heard? What should

[00:36:34] we be, you know, what should I be thinking about? So no doubt people know you, but for those that

[00:36:39] don't, the best way to get in touch with you is through LinkedIn, right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll

[00:36:44] always answer a message. Always. Always. Yeah. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming back on

[00:36:51] again. It's great. It's great to see you and no doubt we'll do this again. Oh, thanks, Martin.

[00:36:55] Cheers, mate. See you soon. Bye.