#206 - Kerry Sudale on the Candidate Experience in Recruitment

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap. Luckily I did say we should hit record because we've been talking for half an hour before realising, wait a minute, that will give you a clue as to who I've got on because well known in the industry for a great smile, great at a job, very very chatty and I'm very pleased to say Kerry Sudale, founder of Sudale Search and Select is the guest, welcome.

[00:00:29] Hi Martin, yeah we could have carried on that conversation for way too long time.

[00:00:33] And then we would have been like oh wait a minute we need to rebook the podcast.

[00:00:37] Yeah and then wait a minute we've got so many other things to do as an independent, when are we ever going to fit it back in again? Maybe January, February time?

[00:00:47] So like I said you're super well known in the industry, I think anyone that meets you loves your passion and just how great it is to talk to you, perfect podcast guest. Where did it all start for you then?

[00:01:02] So I accidentally fell into the world of recruitment. I think I've been quite open about the fact that my dad went through a very difficult time with his depression and turned into alcohol which made him not the nicest to us.

[00:01:19] And I remember him, no offence to anybody of this podcast now especially as I deal a lot with recruitment, but I was working in a call centre at the time, a sales call centre after I graduated.

[00:01:29] And my dad was like what a waste of all of your qualifications working in a call centre, blah blah blah.

[00:01:36] And he went for me in a really nasty way and I thought you know what, I'll show you and I just saw a job role for a Michael Page for a graduate scheme.

[00:01:50] I applied because I had some sales experience, they took me on as a non graduate as just as an associate consultant.

[00:01:57] And then that's where it all started really. I started in the London office and then following my dad sinking further down into it and becoming really, really bad.

[00:02:08] It was a choice of my brother going into care or me relocating to the Midlands.

[00:02:13] Like I handed in my notice to go back to my hometown in Derbyshire and my boss said, how do you fancy setting up our office in the Middle East?

[00:02:25] And I thought, well, let's give it a back.

[00:02:28] So I was a one man band in a big footsie 250 in Birmingham for a while whilst looking after my teenage brother and dealing with my dad coming around.

[00:02:38] So that was my first venture into recruitment and then all built on from there really.

[00:02:44] That is a lot to take on for a young person.

[00:02:50] How was it kind of in, you know, how does it show up now in your experience and how you talk to talk to people that maybe if not in the same situation could be going through stuff at a young age?

[00:03:03] Because you, you had, you know, knockbacks making the most of them and.

[00:03:08] And the home situation that is must must have been made it really, really challenging for you to focus on your career.

[00:03:14] I think what's really interesting is aside from anywhere else, especially in the contact center, when you work with leadership talent, I think some people assume, and especially when you venture into the executive search space, your, your hundred K plus salaries, call them in your sub exec is just below.

[00:03:33] So people assume there is a certain, I guess, guarded conversation that you have with people that, Hey, it's not about the person.

[00:03:42] It's just about the job and where they want to get career development wise.

[00:03:46] And I found it entirely different.

[00:03:48] It's really important to understand someone's story to say, Hey, these are the values that I want to see from a company.

[00:03:55] And are they values because you say, this is what we want the world to see from a marketing perspective or those values ingrained within the person because of their, their upbringing and what they're about.

[00:04:07] And I think that that's probably why I've been able to build my network in such a short space of time.

[00:04:14] Cause I think three years ago, when I launched, I said, I did nothing with LinkedIn.

[00:04:19] I had done nothing with it ever.

[00:04:22] And then I started sharing my story a bit.

[00:04:25] And I think like, I've booked up to about 10,000 followers now.

[00:04:28] And I was, I was less than a thousand, but think when I launched and you go, actually people buy into the story.

[00:04:35] And that's the same, the storytelling element, whenever you're taking a role out to market.

[00:04:40] Yes.

[00:04:41] It's important to know the salary.

[00:04:42] Yes.

[00:04:43] It's important to know who you're working with, but what's the story behind the brands?

[00:04:47] And what's the story behind the person leading you?

[00:04:50] And what's the story in terms of where they are now versus where they want to get to.

[00:04:54] And I think that's the game changer when you're hiring people, because if you understand somebody's story and say, Hey, this is where they grew up.

[00:05:03] And this is what their parents told them about important values, et cetera.

[00:05:07] If the company doesn't live up to those through the interview process and throughout those people will drop out.

[00:05:14] Some people don't care about those things.

[00:05:17] So that's important to know.

[00:05:19] And you go, Hey, why are we losing people in this process?

[00:05:21] And you go, well, this is the value you're demonstrating versus this person.

[00:05:25] And especially someone that came from like my background.

[00:05:28] I remember my dad, he actually had a very good job when we were younger and he was head of electrical maintenance.

[00:05:36] I think at a big factory.

[00:05:38] And I remember his boss, very rich, my dad, very not having that conversation and him going, Hey, you can run this factory without me and his boss.

[00:05:47] I couldn't.

[00:05:50] So I remember him yelling and screaming at my dad one day and I was there because we were allowed to just be running around the factory.

[00:05:58] And he went, hang on a minute.

[00:06:00] I'll stop you right there.

[00:06:01] And he said that you never talked to me like that, especially in front of my daughter ever again, had that conversation.

[00:06:07] And I think it just put back into my head that it doesn't matter like where you are, where you come from.

[00:06:15] Like you just don't like, there's a certain way in which you talk to people.

[00:06:18] And I think throughout the interview process and, you know, exec search in general, it's become quite dull sometimes when you talk about things and you go, actually, it's really not a dull moment to understand what the why in someone's story and why they might want to go somewhere and why they might be interested in a very specific role and why they might want to join this particular business.

[00:06:43] And sometimes we turn it around to a very transactional way of talking.

[00:06:47] We'll send you an email.

[00:06:48] We'll have an interview at this particular time.

[00:06:50] And hey, do you meet these criteria on the job description?

[00:06:54] And that's just not enough.

[00:06:56] You need to find out people's story, find out story of the brand story.

[00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:02] I couldn't agree more.

[00:07:03] You know, the times when I've been involved in hiring and sometimes hiring people at a senior level, I've always found that, you know, the, you want to be a little bit more.

[00:07:13] You want to, it's frustrating because you want to get to know someone.

[00:07:16] It's like you say, you want to know their story, what makes them tick, what's important to them.

[00:07:21] And some of the time you don't get that.

[00:07:23] You just get, tell me about a time when you've had to change a strategic direction and some of your team were against it, you know, and you get, you get good answers.

[00:07:32] And within that, you can pick out things, but you don't really get to know the person until maybe you can have some off piste sort of conversations.

[00:07:42] That's when you really want to, you really want to know.

[00:07:45] Can I just go back a sec?

[00:07:47] Yeah.

[00:07:47] So you set up a whole office in the, in the Midlands.

[00:07:51] How long, how long were you there?

[00:07:54] And then where did you go?

[00:07:55] You know, cause you mentioned you set up pseudo search and select three years ago.

[00:07:59] What was in between?

[00:08:00] So in between it was, it was a new division and brand as part of the page group.

[00:08:07] It's one of their, their sub brands page personnel, which was known as their, their juniors and things.

[00:08:12] And within that we did customer service, contact center, hiring, secretarial, HR, all kinds of stuff until we started separating it out.

[00:08:20] A few years into that, I think I was their top performer across the country at a few times in our permanent division.

[00:08:28] And then I went off on maternity, had my little boy came back and was asked to set up the newly established contact center and customer service division, which was sort of back end middle of 2019.

[00:08:44] I think was when I went back.

[00:08:46] So my son was born in August, 2018.

[00:08:48] I went back in about June, 2019, something like that.

[00:08:52] And we'd been, been through a very messy breakup during that time.

[00:08:56] I, I moved into my mom's walkthrough, which was, which was fun.

[00:09:02] My teenage brother and my mom and dad again with a baby and a big husky, because it was not a big house.

[00:09:08] And I went back to set up our contact center and customer service division.

[00:09:13] Loved it.

[00:09:14] Was able to develop our, our sort of exec offering in that space.

[00:09:19] Hire some people to come and do that, the, the junior stuff.

[00:09:24] We had obviously 2020 hits, which came with its own interesting challenges and recruitment came to a total standstill at one stage until there was obviously the big contracts for all of the NHS track and trace.

[00:09:39] And a lot of even tourism companies started using their contact center, right?

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:45] As the, as, as track and trace.

[00:09:47] And we got a few big campaigns with some utilities companies just sticking to our normal.

[00:09:52] We didn't get involved in any, any sort of track and trace stuff during that time.

[00:09:56] And as I set up from home, it was working really well.

[00:10:00] The teams were getting along really well.

[00:10:02] Obviously there were, there are massive redundancies within that, that big company at that particular time.

[00:10:08] So I went back to a bit of a, there's no online value within that space.

[00:10:13] Cause my team were relatively new and we built up the division from there.

[00:10:18] And then I remember having conversations with my, my new boss at the time going, Hey, so you've been back and you're, you're still sort of managing teams and things.

[00:10:29] Cause I, I took on a different brand and stuff.

[00:10:31] You're, you're still managing teams.

[00:10:33] Like we don't have mums that do this here.

[00:10:35] And started listing off different mums who would all move from a people manager to what we called a business manager route, which was same level of progression.

[00:10:43] You get paid more money just because you bill more money, basically, and you get the job titles that reflect it.

[00:10:49] So I moved back into, into that type of space because they were saying to me, Hey, if you're a people manager, you need to be in the office more frequently, maybe four days a week.

[00:10:59] And I'd got too used to not having my son up at six in the morning at my sister's, which is what I used to do before and pick him up at six at night from nursery.

[00:11:08] I barely saw him.

[00:11:10] And then all of a sudden I'm getting a chance to still billing plenty of money, still topping up the table.

[00:11:15] So I was still getting my promotions.

[00:11:17] And then I thought, I am like doing this for a big corporate.

[00:11:22] These are all of my relationships.

[00:11:23] They're brand new.

[00:11:25] Might as well give it a bash for myself.

[00:11:27] Then that was when my mum thought, Hey, you weren't saying she was like, all of the teachers, she's a TA.

[00:11:32] I was like, Oh, if the teacher that's going to know who Michael Page are, no one's going to know who Sue Dell are.

[00:11:38] And I said, well, not yet, but maybe they will.

[00:11:41] I love that.

[00:11:42] I love that.

[00:11:43] If there's people around you that think your idea is a little bit mental, then I see that as a good sign.

[00:11:50] That's a green light for me.

[00:11:52] And me, my partner was going, yeah, you'll be fine.

[00:11:55] Like he's been self-employed for years, but as, as employed as self-employed can be, because he's a, he's a builder that works on building sites.

[00:12:04] So it's a, it's a bit of one of those where he was like, let's do this.

[00:12:07] But then at the same time, like challenging years, like this one, we're looking at it going, we're both self-employed.

[00:12:13] We're self-security.

[00:12:15] They were.

[00:12:17] I think, I think it's best to ignore those types of thoughts.

[00:12:24] It's the same here.

[00:12:25] I think they just plug away and go, Hey, we can all be positive.

[00:12:28] And we know that this is what's going on and all we can control.

[00:12:31] Right.

[00:12:31] The things that we're doing, the way that we're putting ourselves out there as an independent, you're the same Martin.

[00:12:37] And it's still the case of when people come to me and say, Hey, I've got this particular role.

[00:12:43] If I, if I don't believe in it in the company or that there's, there's no way in terms of the process that they brand that it's going to work out.

[00:12:52] I'm very happy to say, it's not for me at this moment in time, because I think the more you build something where you're focusing on actually what matters from the values, it begets the referrals.

[00:13:06] Cause that's what I always think now, whenever I'm referred something from someone in my network or someone's reached out to me on LinkedIn, the referral is exactly what I expect it to be because they go, Oh, you're exactly as you are on LinkedIn.

[00:13:20] I'm like,

[00:13:22] Surprise.

[00:13:23] Say, create the three.

[00:13:27] Imagine.

[00:13:28] I remember when I worked at first worked at Michael Page.

[00:13:31] And I remember we used to have to wear heels.

[00:13:33] We'd be in suits.

[00:13:35] And I used to think, I can't be a camera.

[00:13:38] I don't know.

[00:13:40] I don't know.

[00:13:40] And we'd all be running around with trainers in our bag, all those little fold up shoes.

[00:13:45] We could fold them off at client meetings and then stick our heels on walking through the office.

[00:13:51] And I just call it now.

[00:13:53] No.

[00:13:54] Like I just, I, I just think the world has changed so much.

[00:13:58] And, and again, that's the same as when we're, when you're working in execs actually usually, and people go, Oh, you need to be really suited.

[00:14:04] I'm like, no, no, the candidates are.

[00:14:07] No.

[00:14:09] It depends if you're working from home as well.

[00:14:12] Cause sometimes if you go into the office, you're much smarter, right?

[00:14:14] Like that if you're working from home, cause she think, Oh, you know, like you and I would finally get to escape the confines of our home office and we're there.

[00:14:21] So you're like, right for me, I'm going to get the straighteners out, the makeup.

[00:14:25] We got this dress that might be slightly moth-y and in the cupboard.

[00:14:30] Because I'm just so used to working in comfort now.

[00:14:32] Cause you, you feel a bit silly working from home in a suit.

[00:14:36] Oh, it's only, it's only, it's only like industry events where I put trousers on or jeans.

[00:14:43] I'm in shorts all the time.

[00:14:45] So.

[00:14:46] You're one so though, Martin Snow on the ground still, still in your shorts.

[00:14:50] Yeah.

[00:14:51] I think I put it on LinkedIn.

[00:14:52] Most of the, most of my life goes on LinkedIn, but my wife was videoing through our front room.

[00:14:58] It was a, well, where we are.

[00:15:00] There's like a sort of hill just outside the right outside this window.

[00:15:04] We try to throw balls with Hugo and stuff.

[00:15:06] But anyway, it was blizzard.

[00:15:08] It was a blizzard.

[00:15:09] And I'd managed to convince one of the girls to go out and make a snowman.

[00:15:15] And we were, but we were pushing it uphill, this big ball.

[00:15:20] And you could hear my wife going, he's still wearing his shorts.

[00:15:24] So like Arctic conditions.

[00:15:28] Am I still in shorts?

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:31] Still, still in shorts.

[00:15:33] And I think, do you know what?

[00:15:34] My dad was always like that, but my, I mean, my dad's got one leg.

[00:15:38] And so he was always saying the trousers used to be really uncomfortable on his fake legs.

[00:15:43] And I still remember him down to me.

[00:15:46] I used to go, Dad, I think you need a new leg.

[00:15:48] Cause he'd have to go for one every now and then.

[00:15:50] And he used to go, I can't go to the lymph clinic.

[00:15:52] And I'm like, why?

[00:15:53] And he used to go, I'm too fat.

[00:15:54] And they couldn't tell me off.

[00:15:55] They're going, maybe.

[00:15:58] I'll leave it.

[00:16:01] And that's what he used to have this leg.

[00:16:03] And he used to go, oh, it's getting a bit too heavy now.

[00:16:06] And like, because they, they used to try and pad them out and make them look like real.

[00:16:10] And back then they definitely didn't.

[00:16:14] But anyway, so he used to start having them where they didn't try and make them real.

[00:16:19] It was just the metal.

[00:16:21] Cause he said, so heavy from having that extra padding up, but that's where he always used

[00:16:26] to wear shorts and we'd see these funny moments.

[00:16:29] Like when we'd be queuing up in the bank and this, you'd see kids like down on the floor,

[00:16:33] like not like knocking on his leg, parents at the back.

[00:16:37] Oh, go with that.

[00:16:39] Dad, look.

[00:16:39] And we'd be lusting at it.

[00:16:41] And I always think that, I think that's, you know, how you approach the world now.

[00:16:46] Like when you're at, I always think you should approach it a bit like a kid.

[00:16:49] Cause he had no, and like for my dad, it's unusual to see a guy walking about in shorts

[00:16:55] with a, with, with a metal leg.

[00:16:57] Just ask.

[00:16:58] Like if you're interested to ask, like dad lost his leg at 17 in a motorbike accident.

[00:17:04] Like he's now seen have 50.

[00:17:07] No, he's six coming up for 60 this year.

[00:17:09] So you go, he's, he's had his, had his fake one for a long, and I always think people used

[00:17:18] to get really awkward.

[00:17:19] Like they'd look at it and going, I can see you want to ask a question.

[00:17:22] And I just ask a question.

[00:17:23] And that's how I always approach it in terms of recruitment.

[00:17:26] I bet you're the same in terms of sales calls and having any, if a question occurs to you,

[00:17:31] it's the question.

[00:17:32] I think it's such a good mindset to have is that it's a curiosity of, um, children

[00:17:38] and the cure.

[00:17:39] And, and I think if you can take that and be curious about life and curious about people,

[00:17:46] that's where the magic happens.

[00:17:48] And certainly everyone I speak to who we know mutually or that, or that they know you say,

[00:17:54] say the same thing about you that they love talking to you.

[00:17:57] You're a great, they have a great relationship with you.

[00:18:01] And I think that always comes from curiosity, you know, being the person that will ask the

[00:18:07] question because you can, you can ask those questions and not be rude.

[00:18:12] You can still be friendly and polite, but ask the question that everyone else might be thinking,

[00:18:17] but for some reason hasn't asked it.

[00:18:21] I think sometimes, and I can understand why people are really scared about offending people.

[00:18:27] And I've always asked the same question when I, when I ask customers those difficult questions,

[00:18:33] I always ask, how did that feel when I asked you that question, by the way, did it, did it feel offensive?

[00:18:39] Like, absolutely not.

[00:18:41] And you basically, beyond a doubt, every single time I ask, why is that okay to ask that question?

[00:18:48] Like some people won't ask that question because they'll feed it back.

[00:18:51] Like, Oh, no, one's ever asked me that before.

[00:18:53] And it's always the same, same feedback is it depends on the intention.

[00:19:01] And you can tell if somebody asked a question with a good intent behind it, then, then there's no reason

[00:19:09] that that can't be a bad question.

[00:19:11] It's like my, my friend who's a HR director, which is a really interesting story when she was looking for a role

[00:19:17] and they were asking her whether she had children.

[00:19:22] And it wasn't that way.

[00:19:25] It's very much about the interview and go, so what are you going to do with those children?

[00:19:29] What are you doing around childcare and stuff?

[00:19:31] And she was a bit like, I answered those questions, you covered them over.

[00:19:36] And she went, because I really need a job.

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:42] Really difficult moment.

[00:19:43] And you think now, like, that's the thing when you're asking those questions and asking with that type of intent, when people are immediately available,

[00:19:52] sometimes you're not going to get an honest answer out of an honest person.

[00:19:57] Because you're asking that question with the view it feels like to discount them from a role.

[00:20:05] Oh, you've got kids.

[00:20:06] You're not going to be able to sort your childcare.

[00:20:10] And you think she's never, those are the type of questions that you never ask.

[00:20:15] They're not, they're not relevant to an interview process.

[00:20:18] As a recruiter, when we have speculative meetings with people, we ask what kind of flexibility do you need?

[00:20:26] And they're the only questions you can ask somebody.

[00:20:28] And you can ask that in terms of an interview.

[00:20:30] What do you need from us in terms of flexible working?

[00:20:33] Especially when you're, you need a flexible work and required office, then you're going to apply for a flexible job role, right?

[00:20:40] You go, hey, what kind of degree of flexibility do you work?

[00:20:43] And you know, as a candidate, you can flip that and go, what degrees of flexibility do you offer?

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:50] I love it.

[00:20:50] And kind of get that sense of that.

[00:20:52] Because I think everybody always gets you advice on what to talk about in terms of money and how to close off negotiations and that kind of thing.

[00:21:01] Like, hey, what, what, what salary are you looking for?

[00:21:04] What are you looking to offer?

[00:21:06] Asking that question with a question.

[00:21:08] But actually, the salary is always fact, right?

[00:21:12] They've got that set away some way.

[00:21:14] You can cover that at a different conversation.

[00:21:16] From my view, if you're ever you're hiring, you should be having the salary conversation in a screening call, never even interview.

[00:21:24] Go, hey, you've applied for this role.

[00:21:26] If it's not got a job, if it's not got salary, we'll just-

[00:21:29] It's like a quest.

[00:21:31] You've not got all the levels yet.

[00:21:33] There will be a big reveal.

[00:21:34] Yeah.

[00:21:36] And you do, I know people that in this market that have gone to five stages of interview, not knowing what the salary is that they have given their expectation.

[00:21:47] And you go, that, that's, that's ridiculous.

[00:21:52] Surprise.

[00:21:54] When they offer and you go, it's 50 grand less.

[00:21:57] And, and somebody goes, oh, well, you know, they'd really like to get to know us through the interview process.

[00:22:03] And I go, it doesn't work like that.

[00:22:05] No.

[00:22:05] You can't pay your bills off likes.

[00:22:07] But if you're not, if you're not got the right salary, same as, oh, we did this benchmarking exercise and we know we're bang average in terms of salary.

[00:22:17] And you go, well, in that case, you are very rarely going to tempt somebody with the same, same money, unless you've got something incredible to offer.

[00:22:28] In which case you need the good story.

[00:22:30] And sometimes people are not very good at telling the story.

[00:22:33] And he has to highlight that and go back.

[00:22:36] Or you have to be paying more.

[00:22:38] Or you're looking for somebody to take a step up.

[00:22:40] Like if you've got a head of salary, that's a bang on average or to the lower end of the salary, odds are you're going to be looking at a manager, a senior manager that's taking their first step up.

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:52] And some people, hey, these aren't a head off.

[00:22:54] It's like selling an average head off salary.

[00:22:58] They don't want this job.

[00:22:59] And I think, I think that's managing expectations of customers up front to say, we have it all the time where you go, well, you'll be having somebody stepping up into that type of role.

[00:23:11] Or you'll be looking after somebody who's poorly paid in this market, like, yeah, okay, we'll step up to this one.

[00:23:18] But this is realistically what you're going to get to that money.

[00:23:22] And people, oh, well, we want a head up and the cold hard truth, pay more money.

[00:23:27] Yeah.

[00:23:28] Now you did a candidate experience survey that you're kind enough to share.

[00:23:35] And that I've put that in the team leader community.

[00:23:37] Loads of people have been commenting on it.

[00:23:40] Why, why did you do that?

[00:23:41] And what, what is it like at the moment for candidates?

[00:23:44] Cause I really liked that kind of candidate experience.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:48] And I think some people when I say, sorry, I know I got some people reaching out to me from inside the recruitment industry, thinking that it was a bit soft, I guess.

[00:24:00] But I think people have that same view of customer experience.

[00:24:04] For example, they go, oh, it's a bit soft, a bit woolly in terms of what, what it's about.

[00:24:10] And you go, actually the candidate experiences is, is if you want to put it under a customer experience umbrella, you would be in recruitment.

[00:24:17] We've referred to candidates, clients, the whole thing is customer experience.

[00:24:21] You've got client who wants to reach a result, i.e. the best person that they could get for the budget that they've got and everything else.

[00:24:30] You have to deliver that for the candidate.

[00:24:33] I think that's a bit of a benefit because in my view, I have never seen somebody in a leadership position in contact center or customer experience that is not at least open to the right opportunity at any given one time.

[00:24:49] They will continually network and they will bat away a lot of opportunity, but they might go, hey, that sounds great.

[00:24:56] I'm in trend.

[00:24:57] Yeah.

[00:24:58] If I'm sat in a current role right now and you go through the interview process, you're going to want a great experience.

[00:25:06] Otherwise you just go, I'm already happy in my current job, actually.

[00:25:10] Sorry.

[00:25:10] And you'll drop out.

[00:25:11] And the reasoning why we started behind the candidate experience survey in the first place is last year I started running an open to work networking session, which was just for immediately available people who were looking for work.

[00:25:27] It was not a super structured conversation or anything like that.

[00:25:33] We started by covering off things like first stage interview questions, what's worked well for people, applications, covering off people's CV, offering around peer-to-peer advice as well as sitting there from a recruitment perspective.

[00:25:46] And during those conversations, I realized like these were all senior people.

[00:25:53] They were heads of and directors.

[00:25:55] No junior people, VPs, they were going for big roles at big old companies for big old salaries.

[00:26:02] And the experiences were just shoddy.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:08] And all told, people were saying the exact same thing.

[00:26:12] It put me off that company forever.

[00:26:16] If they reached out to me again, I would not be interested in that company.

[00:26:22] And the same thing happened in terms of recruiters.

[00:26:26] I hear it all the time.

[00:26:27] I wouldn't go near that recruiter because of X, Y, Z in my experience.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] And they're not little things because, you know, people reach out to you all the time within your inbox and you can possibly reply to everybody whilst you're doing the day job, doing the last thing, doing whatever else you're doing as well.

[00:26:48] But if somebody is engaged with you in conversation, you need to follow up all of those conversations to fruition.

[00:26:57] And I remember thinking, actually, this small group and the people that I speak to on a regular basis, they're giving the feedback constantly that their interview feedback is rubbish.

[00:27:09] Their onboarding process is not strong when they're going through that.

[00:27:14] And actually, people have been focusing a lot more on their onboarding process.

[00:27:18] And what I found through conversations is very few people would drop out following a onboarding process.

[00:27:25] But lots of people would drop out following a poor candidate experience.

[00:27:30] And we go, are we putting the emphasis in the wrong place?

[00:27:35] Like you see, because a lot of people said they're onboarding, you know, although it's important, it's quite simple to get right time with your manager technology when you first start contracts on time.

[00:27:47] But actually, the candidate experience is one of those where you go, it takes a lot of time and effort because if all of a sudden you are supposed to, right, I'll be back to you by the 1st of October.

[00:28:01] So if the 1st of October, you've got no update, you need to go and get the no update update.

[00:28:06] Is that a reward?

[00:28:07] And it's basically, oh, hopefully it will be tomorrow.

[00:28:10] And if we're having a situation on one side or the hiring managers disappeared slightly, you have to keep giving that no update update until you've paused on the no update update to say, I will come back to you as soon as I hear the challenges that I'm having.

[00:28:26] And I think that part of it is really important because you can give a no update update because every person that's in the leadership position has maybe been sidetracked by something else.

[00:28:42] And it's going, how do you hold somebody to account?

[00:28:46] So I come across as, and I am a friendly, happy person, but also for my customers, when we have put our deadlines and timelines in place, I make sure they stick to them or they get a very firm message from me or a voicemail to say, hey, we've given this update.

[00:29:07] We're going to start losing people in this process.

[00:29:09] If you don't come back to me now, like just give a slight update.

[00:29:12] And the amount of people that will just drop a quick text message and go, oh, this is all right, this situation.

[00:29:17] And you go, right, that's easy.

[00:29:20] One simple text message, one WhatsApp, one voice note.

[00:29:23] And then us as an agency, we'll work with however many people we've got in the pipeline at the time to give the updates.

[00:29:33] If you've not got time to do that within your internal team, you could go, hey, there's a lot of people looking for work at the moment.

[00:29:40] Let's go out there and let's hire ourselves.

[00:29:42] So you go, that's absolutely fine.

[00:29:44] Definitely do that.

[00:29:45] Go and look at things like your list, Martin, and go, let's pick up some names of people that are immediately available.

[00:29:51] But you've got to remember that some of those people who have been available for some time have been battered and bashed by the market.

[00:29:59] They have given presentations that are like create our entire business strategy for us.

[00:30:07] They've done it and then be told that they're being offered internally and all of that sort of stuff.

[00:30:11] And you go, we can't do that to people because they remember.

[00:30:16] And more than anything, contact center and customer experience people talk.

[00:30:22] Yeah.

[00:30:22] It's very small.

[00:30:23] And they talk in amongst each other.

[00:30:26] And if it whiffs and stinks of, say, free consultancy, which was the biggest problem that people were having.

[00:30:34] And I remember this small customer experience director who was at final stage.

[00:30:40] And they were having to do a big customer experience strategy for this business.

[00:30:45] And I said, how many at final?

[00:30:48] And she went, oh, I've got to ask that.

[00:30:49] I'll reach out and ask them.

[00:30:50] I'm assuming two or three.

[00:30:52] Eight.

[00:30:56] Eight.

[00:30:57] For me, that's free consultancy.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] I'm a reeks of it.

[00:31:03] Thanks very much.

[00:31:04] This is brilliant.

[00:31:06] We're going to use it.

[00:31:07] Unfortunately, you didn't get the position.

[00:31:11] Exactly.

[00:31:12] And that person was immediately available at the time.

[00:31:15] Like a lot of other people I'm assuming in that particular shortlist.

[00:31:19] So they did it.

[00:31:20] And that's when you go, it's a moment in time.

[00:31:23] And do you want to be known as a business that when times are hard, you take advantage of people?

[00:31:30] Or do you want to just know that people can do the role that you've got?

[00:31:36] And there are plenty of ways to test people.

[00:31:39] Because I personally like a case study or a presentation.

[00:31:42] And the reason being, there's lots of my candidates like it as well.

[00:31:46] Because they go, this is what I do in my day to day.

[00:31:50] This is where I'm most confident.

[00:31:52] Sometimes in interviews, I'm not the most confident in terms of selling myself.

[00:31:55] But talking about contact center operations, how I deliver a training session, for example.

[00:32:01] That's easy.

[00:32:02] I do that.

[00:32:02] And you can do that in a way that shows like a project or passion project that's interesting for that particular person.

[00:32:11] Like we were hiring an insights and analytics role in CX.

[00:32:15] And the person who was at final stage interview was really interested in researching actually the top companies of why they were good at customer experience and had all the insights and analytics behind it in terms of why.

[00:32:30] So he did a gap analysis for his case study on, hey, the best in class customer experience from your view and the gap analysis between us and them.

[00:32:42] And he thought it was great because he could use that research for another role or a future position or actually when he lands in any position.

[00:32:51] But if you're doing something very, very specific, it means that people can't use it again.

[00:32:57] And it comes out in the end where they go, eight people and they go, I was never going to get that job role.

[00:33:04] They were always going to offer it internally.

[00:33:07] They were doing it, but I couldn't shoot my shot in case it turned out the opposite way.

[00:33:15] And I think it's one of those big things that recruiters and search consultants are always sort of accused of, I guess, or it's the abuse from our side is when we need them, they are not there.

[00:33:32] But when they need us, we get a lot of phone problems.

[00:33:36] I.e., this person never communicated with me whilst I was actively looking for a job.

[00:33:42] I landed my new role and immediately they're there going, oh, what do you need over the next three months for me to help recruit for you?

[00:33:51] And you go, that's the same for like companies that do things in the right way.

[00:33:57] Like we found, I think it was less than 50% of people were getting any sort of quality feedback.

[00:34:02] And part of that quality feedback was good quality.

[00:34:07] It was useful for future applications, which was a very low number or good quality.

[00:34:13] It gave me a boost because that's an important one as well to say, hey, you're, you're immediately available.

[00:34:22] You've just interviewed with us.

[00:34:24] This is what we really liked about you to be able to give people that confidence and boost in the market.

[00:34:29] And you go, that was, that was 50% for both of those combined.

[00:34:35] You go, the buff is, oh, it was low.

[00:34:38] Yeah, please do better.

[00:34:41] And the best thing, like, oh my God, thank you so much.

[00:34:45] I have not had this feedback before.

[00:34:47] And it was literally like we were running a process.

[00:34:50] The advert was still going and I just sent people an email to say, hey, we're at final stage on this particular one.

[00:34:57] That's your application's coming a little bit too late.

[00:35:00] That looks great.

[00:35:01] I'll keep you updated in case anything doesn't go to plan in terms of being, oh, thanks for letting me know that.

[00:35:06] No one's told us that before.

[00:35:09] I know.

[00:35:10] Just even just the honest feedback of, yeah, okay, your, your application was just too late.

[00:35:16] Actually, it was, it was just the timing thing as opposed to anything wrong with your, your, your CV.

[00:35:22] And you think, man, that part is low.

[00:35:24] Well, you mentioned, you mentioned time and effort, right?

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:28] If you can't spend time and effort, you know, in an area where you're dealing with people and people who are going through all kinds of, you know, this is a highly emotive time, isn't it?

[00:35:43] That I can, I can remember that, you know, looking for, looking for work and feeling at times panicked and, you know, you would, it was quite a senior role I was going for.

[00:35:56] So you were a lot of the time from your network, people said, oh, come and, come and see our operation and we can, you can meet the people, meet our bosses and have a chat.

[00:36:06] And I remember going to one place in particular, they, they'd forgotten I was coming.

[00:36:11] It was super chaotic.

[00:36:13] And I remember thinking, oh, this isn't great place, but still thinking, well, I've got to get a job.

[00:36:22] I've got to get a job.

[00:36:23] So if they were going to offer me something, I'd probably say yes, but not feel great about it.

[00:36:28] And it's that, it's like you say, if they just spent a bit of more time and attention and care, right, what's happening?

[00:36:36] Let's talk to him.

[00:36:37] He's going to meet this person, then that person.

[00:36:39] And that's just, you know, that's just one, one example, but you're right.

[00:36:43] I know there's people, but I'm in touch with it, being at work for a while and it's had a deep impact on them as people, you know, their, their psyche and their kind of wellbeing.

[00:36:54] They, they have taken some knocks.

[00:36:56] I don't, I think, I think it leaves people open.

[00:37:01] And I think this is the bad thing that people look at as well.

[00:37:04] Now when they say, Hey, they've had a couple of short stints recently and you go look at the historical, because the bad thing is when there are very few bits available.

[00:37:16] And maybe when you have, your confidence has taken a battering through this kind of thing, you're not going to necessarily show your, your best self.

[00:37:26] And you might go for role that you wouldn't have been interested in before and find yourself in situations where you're thinking.

[00:37:34] I can't, I hate it here, but I can't, I can't face being out there again right now.

[00:37:42] And you think that, that, that that's the bad thing.

[00:37:47] And then, cause people go for, maybe we'll jump from one terrible environment to another just to get out of this one.

[00:37:58] And they don't necessarily spot the same red flags, but they would when they're happy and comfortable.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:05] And I think that's led to probably poor process because people are thinking, Hey, we're still getting these great people, but you're not retaining those great people.

[00:38:14] And you can't, I think you, we, we, we spoke about this, didn't we?

[00:38:18] On one of the audio events, like you, you can't get, attract great people without retaining them.

[00:38:26] And if you're hiring great people and you're not retaining them, we should maybe stop putting that on the individual and thinking, let's look at that company.

[00:38:37] Because actually that company having this same, it's really easy to search on LinkedIn now.

[00:38:43] Uh, that same company, having people for brief spells of time, but also what's really easy to do is forget.

[00:38:50] Oh, let's, let's, let's erase this three month.

[00:38:55] I'll leave the ground and fall forever.

[00:38:57] Don't.

[00:38:57] We don't mind about doing that.

[00:38:59] And I think that's the difficult thing then when people enter into process and you go, Hey, what were you doing for these three months?

[00:39:06] Well, actually I was working in quite a toxic environment.

[00:39:09] And I think it makes people feel badly when they go from one toxic environment to another, but it's the easiest thing to do.

[00:39:15] When, when, when you're in toxicity to move out to something slightly less toxic or toxic in a different way that you don't stop.

[00:39:24] And I think that's why companies need to look at it and say, Hey, let's not be overly critical of people giving an honest view of why they're looking to leave their current company.

[00:39:36] You can talk about a toxic work environment without going, Hey, it's toxic.

[00:39:41] And this is what it is.

[00:39:42] But if somebody says to me, Hey, this is the way that the company is running and this is why it's not for me.

[00:39:49] Some companies will turn around and say, Oh, they were really overly critical of their current business.

[00:39:55] It's not overly critical to be honest.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] Same as mine.

[00:39:58] I was with a business for 10 years.

[00:40:01] I absolutely loved it.

[00:40:03] But at the time where I became a parent and something became not quite right for me, it doesn't make them a bad company.

[00:40:10] But for me at that moment in time, being a working mom, wanting to spend the time with my children, now children, and saying, Hey, I can do this.

[00:40:21] I've proved from a revenue perspective that it works.

[00:40:25] Yeah.

[00:40:26] From home, from a team management perspective, that it works working from home, but they want to move it back to the office.

[00:40:32] Then I'm quite, I'm quite able to move on and do something else.

[00:40:36] And it's, it's not me being critical of the company.

[00:40:38] It's them saying, Hey, for me in my current circumstance, it doesn't work.

[00:40:42] And that's the same as anybody else to turn around and say, Hey, this was the vision that I was sold by the company.

[00:40:49] This is the reality.

[00:40:51] And this is the challenge to get to the vision from the current reality.

[00:40:55] And it's, it's not going to work.

[00:40:57] Cause I think that's the thing as well.

[00:40:58] When great people go into organizations, you can all of a sudden see and you go, it's just never going to work.

[00:41:05] Essentially.

[00:41:06] Like the worst one or if you've got, like, cause I work with a lot of founder led organizations and the best founders know what they don't know.

[00:41:14] Cause I may step away from it.

[00:41:17] The worst founders are the ones that are just in at the detail of absolutely everything, trying to control everything.

[00:41:24] Then you go, you don't need to hire if you want to control everything yourself.

[00:41:28] You're just gonna, you're going to waste a lot of money doing that.

[00:41:33] And you're going to hire really great people who are going to stick around.

[00:41:38] So I think that was the reason why I thought let's focus on the candidate experience.

[00:41:43] And I saw a couple of posts from my competitors, I think at the time, not ones that I know particularly well, but had put on, well, we keep seeing an emphasis on the candidate experience.

[00:41:56] So I thought, oh, this is really, it's that more face.

[00:41:59] I think in terms of candidate experience, cause I was thinking I'm the only one that I can see that talking about it a lot.

[00:42:05] Let's talk about the client experience.

[00:42:08] Not everyone talks about the client experience.

[00:42:11] We all deliver the white glove experience to our clients.

[00:42:14] That's, that's the big thing.

[00:42:15] And it's the most frustrating thing in the background.

[00:42:17] Sometimes when, you know, somebody will sell, but this is what we do for our candidates.

[00:42:22] And we speak to the candidates and they go, that's, that's not true.

[00:42:27] You go, we all sell the white glove to the client.

[00:42:31] Everybody does.

[00:42:32] And they get the hands on very, and I know so many candidates that, you know, their clients, if one day candidates, another.

[00:42:40] They're the same people.

[00:42:42] Yeah.

[00:42:42] Hey, I worked with this business for a decade.

[00:42:44] And when I needed them, they wouldn't even return my calls as a candidate.

[00:42:49] I am never working with them again.

[00:42:51] And you go, because people care about the client experience.

[00:42:55] They work on that.

[00:42:56] But the candidate experience, client, it's exactly one and the same.

[00:43:00] One day they're hiring.

[00:43:01] One day they're looking.

[00:43:03] Like, how can you treat them so differently?

[00:43:05] Exactly.

[00:43:06] So you, with that kind of mindset, and you don't mind being different and saying it as it is,

[00:43:15] when you think about your business, and I guess we're at that time of year where you start thinking about next year,

[00:43:22] what are your kind of hopes and what do you hope for pseudo search and select next year and onwards?

[00:43:31] Well, I guess, first of all, I'll just briefly cover on the fact, because I'm so big on the candidate experience,

[00:43:38] it means that I do attract criticism if somebody lands in my inbox and I don't reply to them straight away.

[00:43:43] I've had messages of people that I don't know, and then 24 hours later, or if it's been a Friday and I haven't replied on the Monday morning,

[00:43:50] I get, I thought you were all about the candidate experience and you've not replied to my message.

[00:43:55] I'm like, I don't know.

[00:43:58] You're not one of my candidates.

[00:44:00] Because, yeah, like, we're working out ways to manage it, but it's actually talking about,

[00:44:08] hey, how can we position that to let people know that we do care about their experience,

[00:44:14] but actually there's lots of other moving parts as well.

[00:44:17] And for pseudo search, what my hopes for the future really are, and for next year, just thinking about next year,

[00:44:26] is being able to open the doors to organisations where they go, we really like what you're doing.

[00:44:32] Because I think I mentioned to you earlier, when we weren't recording, that I've had people reach out to me and go,

[00:44:39] hey, we have this really senior role.

[00:44:42] We'd love your help with it.

[00:44:44] But, you know, as a business, we focus on using Shrek forums or slightly bigger firms or whatever.

[00:44:51] Can you give us some free support on this?

[00:44:53] And you go, I can't work for free because...

[00:44:59] Do you work for free?

[00:45:01] No.

[00:45:01] Well, nobody pays me.

[00:45:04] And you go, well, actually, that's fine.

[00:45:07] If you're, if as a business, you like what we're doing, but this has been your company policy,

[00:45:15] I completely understand that.

[00:45:17] So my hope for pseudo search, and it's the same for any sort of independent founders and things,

[00:45:22] is if you like what somebody is doing, reach out to them, give them the opportunity

[00:45:27] to bid against your Shrek firm.

[00:45:31] And if your Shrek firm sort of, like in my case, the Shrek firm wipes the floor with me and they go,

[00:45:37] we're going to go with them.

[00:45:38] I'll go, cool.

[00:45:40] Fair enough.

[00:45:41] No problems.

[00:45:42] But I think it's the same as any independent business.

[00:45:46] So I don't know if you're the same.

[00:45:47] Same, Martin is, give us a chance to demonstrate what we do.

[00:45:51] If you've got time, if you like what we're doing, you're getting good feedback from people in the market.

[00:45:57] You're thinking, I like what they're about on LinkedIn.

[00:45:59] I like what they're doing with this.

[00:46:01] I've heard good feedback from them in the market about this.

[00:46:05] Don't discount them just because they're smaller.

[00:46:08] Have a conversation with them and you might be surprised.

[00:46:11] Like I've come up against much bigger firms than myself and gone, hey, this is the way that we're going to do it.

[00:46:17] This is the approach.

[00:46:18] And people have chosen to go with me because they preferred that approach versus what.

[00:46:24] Now I'm sure they go against other, will go against me at some stage or another where I don't get it.

[00:46:31] But again, I'm really easy to offend.

[00:46:34] And always my thing would be, give us a chance to bid against a bigger firm.

[00:46:41] And if we don't secure that, great, fine.

[00:46:44] Give us some feedback.

[00:46:45] Well, I would absolutely champion that kind of people taking the next step.

[00:46:52] So you get kind of, oh, I love what you do.

[00:46:55] I love this.

[00:46:56] I love how you show up.

[00:46:57] And I think it's great that you're doing this.

[00:46:59] And I say, oh, would you like to try it?

[00:47:03] Would you like to do it yourself for your contact center?

[00:47:07] No.

[00:47:10] That's the thing.

[00:47:12] Why not and have a conversation?

[00:47:13] Because I always think it takes nothing, right?

[00:47:17] I bet you can get through a meeting in terms of doing what you do, finding out a bit of information.

[00:47:22] Sometimes for a quick whip, half an hour and say, hey, let's have a conversation about this.

[00:47:27] Ideally, even then have a half an hour of time.

[00:47:30] But you think, let's have a half an hour conversation.

[00:47:33] If you then, half an hour, it's easy to steal a half an hour conversation.

[00:47:37] If you like conversation after half an hour, let's continue it.

[00:47:42] It's why networking is great, right?

[00:47:44] Because you bump into people.

[00:47:45] I think people always assume, ah, if we don't know Martin, he runs the TLC.

[00:47:51] Maybe he'll try and sell us the PLC straight away.

[00:47:53] They'll start.

[00:47:55] No, we don't.

[00:47:57] Just because I worked in recruitment, it's like we were at the UK CXAs and someone was like, you're not speaking about recruitment at all.

[00:48:03] I'm like, speak about recruitment 24-7.

[00:48:06] I am not interested.

[00:48:07] This is people's work jolly.

[00:48:10] It's my jolly of being.

[00:48:12] So I want to come around, have a good time, have real conversations with people.

[00:48:17] And you think, actually, if somebody is really easy to talk to, it's really easy to turn that into a business conversation because all of a sudden they realize that, hey, you're not going to turn around and pitch slap them at every opportunity.

[00:48:31] Now, I have one.

[00:48:33] I have a final question for you.

[00:48:35] Do you regret that me and you turned down the chance to invest in oil at the XA?

[00:48:46] I wonder if he'll be there again, Martin, so that maybe we can get our chance.

[00:48:50] But I think, you know, the government at the moment would probably have us believe that as independent consultants and, you know, running our own business, Martin, that we have that, you know, 500 million laying around or whatever it was to invest in oil.

[00:49:07] Well, the story was me and Kerry were chatting at the stand and having a great time.

[00:49:14] And this guy came over and asked us.

[00:49:17] I can't remember the way round he did it, but it was like.

[00:49:20] You tried to say he ran a contact center because do you remember, he came over to me and you were busy in a chat with somebody.

[00:49:27] Beth was busy chatting to somebody as well.

[00:49:30] And he said, oh, so what's this all about?

[00:49:33] And I was thinking about it.

[00:49:35] And he was like, yeah, I've run a contact center here.

[00:49:38] And then it was a very clear that he absolutely did contact center.

[00:49:44] And then he started talking about that he had.

[00:49:48] It was 150 million barrels of oil.

[00:49:52] And did we want to invest?

[00:49:56] Yeah.

[00:49:57] And I think it was probably safe to say he wasn't a native.

[00:50:06] Smart like you.

[00:50:07] I do hope he is there again this year.

[00:50:12] Have you got a stand this year?

[00:50:14] Yes.

[00:50:16] Yes, I have.

[00:50:19] And like, I will be exclusive now for you, just so everybody knows.

[00:50:23] I doubt there'll be a shopping trolley like there was last year.

[00:50:27] But here's my plan.

[00:50:28] Yeah, I see what you think.

[00:50:29] Because I know, I reckon I can, I trust you to be honest.

[00:50:32] I, all I'm going to have in there are like camping chairs.

[00:50:37] You know, like the captain's chairs that you just pull out.

[00:50:40] That's it.

[00:50:44] What, just to sit and chat with you?

[00:50:46] Are you going to have any signs that you think?

[00:50:48] Oh, I've got, I've, I've got a sign.

[00:50:50] I've got the sign that's got both the logos on it.

[00:50:53] So that will be there.

[00:50:55] But I'm super low effort, slightly bizarre.

[00:51:02] Because, you know, there's some people that spend a lot of money

[00:51:06] and have great engagement stuff, you know, F1 cars.

[00:51:09] The tech giants, Martin.

[00:51:12] Like, we're not going to compete against them with fancy stuff.

[00:51:14] And I'm, and I think with five camping chairs,

[00:51:18] I'm not going to be asked if I want to invest in oil.

[00:51:24] A good idea.

[00:51:25] I wonder how many offensive people will come up to you.

[00:51:28] Because I remember you saying one of the first times you did these face-to-faces,

[00:51:32] somebody turned around to you and just kept coming up to you throughout the day.

[00:51:36] Didn't realise you were so, so short-barred.

[00:51:38] Yeah, you're so much smaller than I thought you would be.

[00:51:41] I'd say.

[00:51:42] Same as when, like, can you remember we had the conversation?

[00:51:45] Oh yeah, I remember when I went to an interview and someone went,

[00:51:48] as he sat down.

[00:51:49] Well, oh man, you've got a big note.

[00:51:51] What?

[00:51:54] Oh, what?

[00:51:56] Hey, this is the fact when you talk about communication

[00:51:59] and how to interview and all of those sort of soft things

[00:52:02] and you go, people don't say these kind of things, do you?

[00:52:05] And they go, yeah, yeah, they do.

[00:52:11] Well, we've got this to look forward to.

[00:52:14] Well, this is it.

[00:52:15] I think people, because I go to a fair few networking events

[00:52:21] or I'm stood next to people a lot or stood next to my tiny children,

[00:52:24] I think people always know that I'm sure.

[00:52:26] So it's never a surprise.

[00:52:28] People would be the night, oh, you're really,

[00:52:30] no one's ever turned around to me and gone,

[00:52:32] I'm not really sure, carry on.

[00:52:33] Don't underestimate us, though.

[00:52:35] Which is it?

[00:52:36] I've been as firecrackers as I thought.

[00:52:38] My sister, Martin, is four foot nine.

[00:52:41] So I'm tall.

[00:52:45] And so I always say, like, they're like, oh, we can't really.

[00:52:48] And actually, Martin, my dad is five foot four.

[00:52:52] Cool.

[00:52:53] So I'm tall.

[00:52:56] Like I said, I'm five foot four, but my dad is five foot four,

[00:52:59] my mum is five two and my sister's four nine.

[00:53:02] So I'm practically a giant.

[00:53:04] But it's always interesting.

[00:53:05] And I think that's the same thing when we talk about candidate experience, right?

[00:53:09] It's even those little parts of the language of how you ask things

[00:53:12] and the sort of things that you say.

[00:53:14] Some people just have word vomit where you're like, that's so different.

[00:53:17] What are you doing?

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:19] And it's even just like tiny moments.

[00:53:23] I've heard about people go, oh, yeah, well, I have this degree.

[00:53:26] Oh, well, here people have this class of degree.

[00:53:28] And you think, you know, people are not going to be interested in that.

[00:53:33] It's not a big set.

[00:53:34] Oh, great, great.

[00:53:35] It almost feels offensive.

[00:53:37] And you know, it's interesting how many of those micro conversations that clients think,

[00:53:43] hey, we're trying to pick up on this micro red, well, stop looking for red flags,

[00:53:46] look for more green flags in the candidates.

[00:53:48] But candidates are looking for exactly the same.

[00:53:51] And one phrase terminal, something that you say can really impact on people getting the job role.

[00:54:00] So my always think is, yeah, have real and open conversations, but also mind what you say.

[00:54:07] And that is a lovely play.

[00:54:10] Let's say we'll definitely have to do another one because we haven't even spoken about football.

[00:54:14] No, lost 15-0 yesterday in Cup game.

[00:54:18] Okay, let's move on quickly.

[00:54:21] Terry Suda, thank you so much for coming on.

[00:54:24] And we'll definitely do another one where we'll talk about football and whatever takes our fancy.

[00:54:31] Hopefully we've got some wins coming in the way.

[00:54:33] And actually, I don't know how much of this has just been a conversation that wasn't too much of what we said we'd covered today.

[00:54:41] But oh well.

[00:54:42] It's been fun.

[00:54:43] I've really enjoyed it.

[00:54:44] Great.

[00:54:45] Lovely talking to you, Martin.

[00:54:46] Thanks for having me.

[00:54:47] No worries.

[00:54:48] Cheers.

[00:54:49] Cheers.