#210 - Dan Cohen of Nespresso and a leap into the unknown

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap.

[00:00:04] Do you have team leaders in your contact centre or would you be interested in helping team leaders by sharing your experience?

[00:00:14] Two years ago now I created the only and the first online community for team leaders.

[00:00:21] It has everything a team leader needs to be able to thrive in their role and enjoy it too.

[00:00:28] If you are interested in adding your team leaders, your aspiring team leaders or maybe you'd like to join yourself,

[00:00:36] all you need to do is email me at martin at getoutofwrap. Now let's get on with the show.

[00:00:43] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Get Out of Wrap. It's long overdue but he's back.

[00:00:50] Dan Cohen, the legend that smashed contact centres for Nespresso award winner

[00:00:57] and then took a huge leap of faith to run all of their logistics. A phenomenal task and

[00:01:06] of course one of my favourite things that Dan has done. He, I don't think about George Clooney or David

[00:01:13] Beckham for Nespresso ad but as I think of Dan and his modelling career as the man of the face of Nespresso

[00:01:22] Coffey. He's been on the podcast before, he's a good friend of mine. I'm really glad he's back. Welcome Dan.

[00:01:29] Hello Martin, what a build up that was. I'll send you the cash in the post. Don't believe anything you said guys.

[00:01:36] And I will have to share the movie poster that your colleagues did. I loved it.

[00:01:41] Yeah, yeah, that's one of them regrets in life. That's been used at my expense quite a lot.

[00:01:48] Now, so you, you've, we've talked on when you first came on about contact centres, everything you've done,

[00:01:54] but you've gone through since we did that episode, you've gone through a seismic change.

[00:02:00] What is it and when did it happen?

[00:02:03] Yeah, so it was a couple of years ago now I came on, right? So yeah, an opportunity

[00:02:10] last August came up. So really throughout my career, all I know is customer service and

[00:02:16] contact centres and an opportunity arose for me to, to move into the world of supply chain.

[00:02:23] In August last year, I've gained definitely a few more grey hairs along with the horrendous Borat

[00:02:30] moustache. I will call out for anybody watching on YouTube. This isn't my normal look. This is for

[00:02:35] the Movember. Donate. Can we do all those tickers?

[00:02:38] Yeah. So yeah, I've moved into the world of supply chain. So warehouses, bringing product into the country,

[00:02:49] delivering them to your door or to your boutiques and yeah, loving the new challenge and the new change.

[00:02:58] Well, great word. So change. When that, when the opposite opportunity was presented to you and you,

[00:03:07] you knew the extent that that was going to be a change, how did that make you feel?

[00:03:13] So, well, I speak to some of my team about this. So for me, there's three certainties in life, right?

[00:03:19] Death, taxes and KDB assists. They're the three things that are guaranteed to happen. The first

[00:03:26] one, and this is really, it's a little bit morbid, but I always say this to my team and it's, it's,

[00:03:31] it's the reality of life. We're just on a road to, to death, right? And that, that is ultimately

[00:03:39] what happens while we're on this planet. And I'm a firm believer when opportunities arise,

[00:03:46] go for them and grab them. And I wasn't expecting the opportunity. And, you know,

[00:03:51] I remember the, the room I was in and the people I was with where the, the opportunity was presented.

[00:03:56] And I'd say it probably took me all the 15 minutes to say, let's do this. And I think even they were

[00:04:02] shocked and sort of said, do you want to go home? Do you want to speak to the wife, to the family?

[00:04:07] And I said, no, let's, let's go for it. But why absolutely thought I was insane. And when I got

[00:04:11] back and told her about it, but, but we're here for a short time, right? And, and, you know,

[00:04:17] I'm a firm believer of feel the fear and, and, and diving. And, and that's what I did. And I,

[00:04:24] I won't look back and I know for sure, if I hadn't taken the chance, I'd have regretted it. And life's

[00:04:31] too short for living with regret. So yeah, it was a lot of change, some fear, some unknowns,

[00:04:39] we're, we're, we're here for a short time, as I say, and we might as well make it exciting along

[00:04:42] the way around.

[00:04:43] Yeah. 100% agree. And for those that don't know, and it pains me to say it, ADB assists is Kevin

[00:04:50] De Bruyne of Man City fame. Yeah. It is. Guaranteed assists.

[00:04:57] Who Tottenham have on Saturday?

[00:05:00] Could be a problem. Although they're not, they're not on grade, they're not on grade four.

[00:05:03] I don't know who I'm speaking about there, Spurs or Man City.

[00:05:06] It's a safe bet. We could, we could say that about Spurs.

[00:05:11] Yeah. I don't know if he's injured at the moment as well, Cody, is he?

[00:05:13] I hope so.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:15] A quick note.

[00:05:19] So you've been doing the role, what's that then? A year and three months now.

[00:05:24] Yeah.

[00:05:24] Has the extent, has the difference between contact center and supply chain, has that surprised you?

[00:05:36] Is it been more or less than you thought?

[00:05:41] So yeah, I mean, look, the, the, the change is quite, quite significant, but I think, I think

[00:05:45] the starting point as well, I was going back to the question before is we were good in, in

[00:05:52] contact centers in terms of being the voice of the customer. But then also my experience, personal

[00:05:57] experiences, you know, we can also always bemoan other departments as well and what they're doing

[00:06:03] in the consequence that, that they're having on us, but no changes if not does, right? So there's also

[00:06:10] a piece around go and get involved in, in other areas and take everything you've learned from the

[00:06:16] contact center and you know, that, that voice of the customer, the customer experience,

[00:06:22] the outcome for the customer will never leave with, leave me. And ultimately all departments are there

[00:06:29] to, to, to service the customer. So there, there are some, some huge differences in different ways

[00:06:35] of working and, you know, even from elements around health and health and safety, what, what is possible

[00:06:43] as part of law and regulation is, is much more severe for the right reasons in, in, in the world of,

[00:06:50] uh, supply chain where there is, you know, far greater, uh, greater risk of moving parts and,

[00:06:56] in consequences. But there's some of that, but then like when you strip it all back, a lot of what

[00:07:02] everybody does in, in some ways process people and technology. And you know, one thing that you,

[00:07:10] you will also carry with you apart from that voice of customer from a, from a contact center world is,

[00:07:15] we know processes. Do we know processes? We know people. I love contact centers for the people.

[00:07:21] And there's some similarities in the world of supply chain in terms of different levels,

[00:07:25] the broad spectrum of people you get working there in the industry, the massive cultures,

[00:07:31] et cetera, all, all of that stuff. And in the technology, you know, maybe the technology isn't

[00:07:35] quite as sexy as some of the stuff in, in, in the contact center world these days, but there's still,

[00:07:40] you know, wash of technology that you, you need to get your head round in, in the supply chain world.

[00:07:46] So it is different. I think there is, you know, often a, a different, different type of person who,

[00:07:53] who works in there. My team is, is very different to the team I had in the contacts in the world.

[00:07:59] I'm, I'm super pleased that in my time at Espresso in particular, I've managed to build two of the best

[00:08:05] teams ever. Very, very different. One in the contacts in the world, one in, one in the supply chain now.

[00:08:10] So yeah, differences, but then also similarities. And I hope what I've been able to bring is,

[00:08:17] is, is, you know, always putting that customer into what we do. So we've got all these processes,

[00:08:23] which often can stop in a supply chain world at the, the end of the process, but I've kind of bolted on,

[00:08:28] okay, but what does that mean to the customer? And hopefully I'm now bringing the two departments a lot,

[00:08:34] a lot closer together and helping each other to understand because it's not just one way.

[00:08:39] The, the contact center world would often bemoan something of the supply chain world.

[00:08:44] And I'd be included in that, right? I now understand that world far greater.

[00:08:48] And I can go back to my colleagues and contacts and I know that this was really annoying, but

[00:08:53] because of X, Y, and Z, this is why we have to do it that way and vice versa, right?

[00:08:59] In terms of some of the, some of the impacts. So yeah, I've been able to knit part with parts

[00:09:04] of it together, but I'm also learning a vast amount of, of new skills. I mean,

[00:09:10] some of the stuff I know Martin will involve this audience with about check pallets and you know,

[00:09:15] the, the, the rigidity of boxes and all, all these, the APR racking and all, all of this sort of

[00:09:22] stuff that I'm learning has been, has been great. And I'm having to learn really, really quickly.

[00:09:27] Well, that kind of, we were speaking before hitting record about liking, not knowing things and then

[00:09:34] going on and learning about them. If you think about this year and just over a year, your,

[00:09:42] the amount you've had to learn has probably been vast, right?

[00:09:49] Yeah. But I've, I've loved that. I've loved it. So, you know, and, and what I'll touch on,

[00:09:55] I'm not, I'm, I'm just a lad from Leeds, right? I'm not a psychologist or anything like that. So,

[00:10:00] you know, the, or anyone listening should challenge, should disagree, should have their own opinion

[00:10:05] of things. If you want a psychologist, I brought a plug with me, actually, Danny Wareham's the

[00:10:09] Man to Grow the Sea for that sort of stuff. But it's a little bit cliche, but I've kind of loved

[00:10:22] being the stupidest person in the room, you know? So it's the cliche of, you never want to be the

[00:10:26] smartest person in the room. But for me personally, that, that could not be more true. I love going

[00:10:32] in a room and learning from the amazing colleagues we've got, the amazing partners we've got. It's, uh,

[00:10:38] invigorated me. It's, um, engaged me massively. I, I love learning, um, new things. And so for me

[00:10:48] personally, it's been, it's been fantastic and it goes back, you know, to those three guarantees in

[00:10:52] life, right? We're here for a short time. It's great to go and learn things, to know new things,

[00:10:57] to push yourself and, and, and see where you can, where you can go. So yeah, I've, I've thoroughly

[00:11:03] enjoyed it. And you, you were talking earlier then about the, the teams, right? And that you've been

[00:11:12] lucky to have two great teams, two different skill sets, two different sets of experiences and get into

[00:11:21] that and get into that point. There's something there I love about being you, you're the leader or

[00:11:30] when you started, you were the lead, you were a leader of a team. You, if you had your top Trump

[00:11:38] card would have had the lowest score for knowledge about the area you were leading.

[00:11:46] I imagine unless you brought people over with you, everyone else in your team knew more than you

[00:11:52] about the area you were, you were leading. And there's something special about that. There's

[00:11:59] something, it opens up a whole area for us to talk about of leadership, right? Because I can remember,

[00:12:10] I used to say to my teams when I was leading a contact center operations for an outsourcer

[00:12:16] manager. And some of my managers and team leaders would get hooked up on, if we bought on a new

[00:12:24] client that was offering a new service, I said, you've got, you've got to find a way to think of

[00:12:29] it like this, which is whatever the service or product is, that's just a widget. What we know we're good at

[00:12:37] is the whole process. And then you just insert whatever the new thing is in there and we'll

[00:12:44] learn about it. We'll find out about it, but don't get hooked up on about, hooked up on it now. From what

[00:12:50] you've done though, it strips it back even more. So what you're, what you're dealing with is just pure

[00:12:55] leadership. Yeah. But I also, and again, like I try and look at, at life through, called path full,

[00:13:03] right? So maybe a lot of people would be worried about that, but from a leadership point of view,

[00:13:09] it allowed me to be authentically vulnerable because I had no other choice, right? You can't,

[00:13:16] you can't BS people. They see, they see through it. They, I was from within the business, you know,

[00:13:22] I've been in the previous area for four and a half years, so people knew me. And I think that

[00:13:28] that's an element that, that helped and, and is something that, you know, is an important skill

[00:13:34] in, in the leadership toolkit is, is that, that authenticity and, but also the vulnerability,

[00:13:41] right? But then also doubling down on what is it you bring to the table, right? We're all,

[00:13:46] we're all a team, right? To keep on the football analogies, you know, Trent Alex, Trent Alexander-Arnold,

[00:13:54] I think the worst name to try and get out there. Bane, Cleo. Just a normal passer of the ball,

[00:13:59] incredible. Are you going to play him at centre back? I doubt it, right? Unless you really,

[00:14:05] really have to, but he's part of an incredible team. And he, he plays his part. So it's about

[00:14:11] you understanding what you can bring to the table and some of the skills that I had, which are

[00:14:16] relevant to the knowledge of, of, of supply chain in, in terms of just a more broader leadership

[00:14:22] piece in terms of supporting people, stakeholder management and decision making, you know, all,

[00:14:29] all this type of stuff that I could do and getting to know, getting to know my team really well,

[00:14:34] understanding the bits where, where they, they could play and where they could bring to, to the

[00:14:39] table and, and being really honest and, and open with them, but not, not fearing that, you know,

[00:14:44] not, not feeling as though I've got some, some large amount of, of imposter syndrome. It's,

[00:14:51] it's about embracing it. Yeah. Going with the change and, and remembering you're part of a team,

[00:14:58] like not nothing is done alone. Like we all, we all work. I mean, probably the worst person I've said

[00:15:02] that to Martin, but you're part of a big, big community, but you know, ultimately an enterprise

[00:15:06] business where we're, we're part of teams and we've got to play to one another's strengths. So

[00:15:11] I was just very clear on guys. This is what I'm going to do. I'll play to my strengths that I can

[00:15:16] bring here. This is where I need you to play to your strengths. I'm going to commit to you that

[00:15:20] I'm going to get up to speed as quickly as possible to learn, to ask stupid questions,

[00:15:26] all, all of that stuff. And, you know, equally at the same time, sometimes knowing nothing is the

[00:15:32] greatest superpower. So I recently just complete my, my new love team. And I brought in a, an amazing

[00:15:38] lady called Michelle, who's got 25 years plus experience in, in supply chain, loved her from

[00:15:47] like the first few minutes of interviewing her. And then she just went on to be better and better

[00:15:51] and better. And I recruited her for a role that often is, is not filled from outside. It's,

[00:15:56] is benchy filled from inside, but I felt that she was the right. And she came in not knowing anything

[00:16:01] about Nespresso, right. And the way we did things in the way, the way we worked. And I remember

[00:16:07] constantly, and I still have this conversation with her at the moment. I said, your superpower is that

[00:16:11] at the moment, right? You don't know the way we do things in your sitting, you're observing,

[00:16:16] using your experience without any bias to what's gone before or what's being said before. And you're

[00:16:23] observing how we do things, how people interact and that, that is your superpower. And at some point

[00:16:29] that superpower will disappear and one of your other superpowers will kick in. But sometimes the power

[00:16:34] of knowing nothing is, is actually one of the most important things when, when you arrive at a business,

[00:16:41] you know, asking that, why did we do that? And hearing the fable, that's the way we've always done it.

[00:16:48] Yeah.

[00:16:48] Oh, I love it. That utilizing new people is really important, often overlooked, but yeah,

[00:16:55] putting them to work and saying, tell us, tell us what you see, ask the questions that you can do

[00:17:02] without worrying. I mean, you should never worry, but you know, some people do when, when you're brand

[00:17:08] new in, you will unearth some really interesting stuff and conversation pieces. Now you mentioned

[00:17:15] imposter syndrome earlier. And I know through talking to you, you have some very interesting views on that,

[00:17:23] don't you? Well, it's set up there. I don't know if it's interesting. And again, look, I caveat that

[00:17:29] these are just, you know, the way I look at things and I am no qualified psychologist or anything like

[00:17:35] that. But what I have noticed and what I've observed as a, as a leader is imposter syndrome seems to just

[00:17:44] roll off the tongue of people now in, in so many situations and often isn't really delved into,

[00:17:52] to any further. And it's kind of just become, you know, common, common phrase amongst people now when

[00:17:58] they're in a situation which is new or there's some change or something's a little bit uncomfortable.

[00:18:06] And my, not my worry, but my, you know, my, my guidance to people in, in, in that situation is

[00:18:16] obviously to, to delve into it a little bit more and, and understand where, where that's, where that's

[00:18:23] coming from. But I, you know, I go back to some of the points I've made earlier in terms of not

[00:18:29] wanting to be the smartest person in the room, understanding that everyone has that superpower,

[00:18:33] be brand new and you know, you know nothing. And I just worry that people miss opportunity

[00:18:40] through something that potentially they don't necessarily understand, but I've heard being

[00:18:46] discussed that I've never really died into it. And you know, you know, what is that feeling that you

[00:18:52] get? So not, not feeling worthy, feeling as though the dancer is going to catch you in the club and,

[00:18:58] and throw you out because you're not, you shouldn't, you shouldn't be there. But what I

[00:19:03] what I've learned is, you know, confidence grows when you keep showing up, right. And

[00:19:09] there will be times when you feel uncomfortable, there will be times you, you don't understand what's,

[00:19:15] what's happening around you, but I just, I just worry and I worry for, you know, maybe not that I'm an

[00:19:23] old man, right. I still, still a young fella. I think just about my kids would say opposite, but I

[00:19:28] worry more for the younger people coming into work and, and particularly with, and listen,

[00:19:33] I love LinkedIn. But when I, when I go on LinkedIn, you know, so many experts in the world, right. No

[00:19:39] shade on anyone by the way, because there's absolutely some experts out there in particular,

[00:19:44] if, if you're looking for an expert to guide your team leaders, team leader community,

[00:19:48] an amazing place. I love the work I see from, from Meris out there. You know, there are some amazing

[00:19:53] people, but there are also the self appointed experts. And I think sometimes people look,

[00:19:58] look at LinkedIn and assume that there, everybody is just an expert on, on things. And you know,

[00:20:05] I'm not an expert. And I think, you know, what I'd say is expert is loud. Wisdom knows its limits,

[00:20:12] right. And so don't, don't get too caught up in, in being down on your cell because you've got this

[00:20:20] lanes of the world, which is not real, which suggests that everybody's an expert. So not,

[00:20:25] you know, the greatest bit to be able to call out the BS is the overnight wrath of people who are

[00:20:33] experts in AI, right. It's been around two minutes. I don't think the people who designed it fully

[00:20:39] understand it. And yet we're flooded with people who were experts in transform contact centers. And

[00:20:44] again, no shade on anyone's everyone's out there trying to make a book, but I do worry that

[00:20:50] it gives this false impression to people. Whereas, you know, again, to be cliche,

[00:20:55] every day is a school day. You are not going to know anything, everything. I don't think you ever

[00:21:00] become an expert. There's always something new things always change. And I just more want to try

[00:21:07] and encourage people to actually show up to the table to try and overcome some of those,

[00:21:13] those worries and concerns and bring their authentic self with them and their ideas, right?

[00:21:20] Because they may be sat on amazing ideas, which they don't bring forward. You know,

[00:21:26] Henry Ford famously, if I asked people what they wanted, they say, faster horses,

[00:21:30] got the cars now, where, where would be, where would we be without, without the cars? And, and,

[00:21:34] you know, I just, I just worry that people sometimes will hide behind the label now because that's the

[00:21:41] easier way to go. Whereas I think we actually should be trying to use more positive language to

[00:21:49] try and help people move into it. And, and, and also try to, I think it's incumbent on us as,

[00:21:54] as leaders to try and make sure that they don't look through that lens of, of LinkedIn or, or wherever,

[00:22:00] and feel like they're, they're inferior in any way and, and make sure everyone is bringing their,

[00:22:06] the value to the business. That's what round with.

[00:22:08] I love it. And it, and obviously it's a topic. It's come up quite a bit in the team leader community

[00:22:16] because I like you, I think it's really important for not just in age, but in experience, maybe newer,

[00:22:23] younger leaders who are looking around, you know, I've had many questions around, have I

[00:22:33] had periods in my career where I've suffered from imposter syndrome. And like you, I think

[00:22:40] commonly known and used labels can be helpful and not helpful. They're helpful in opening the door to

[00:22:47] conversations and exploring what's really going on. They're unhelpful in the, they can be used in an

[00:22:54] unwieldy way at times, but I, you know, I've been able to say I can pinpoint the times in my career

[00:23:02] where the feelings and thoughts I had, you could say would fit into that. A lot of the Venn diagram

[00:23:09] around imposter syndrome, but you, you made some really good points around. I kept showing up,

[00:23:16] you know, I think back to the time I was in Turkey and a, I didn't think I should be chosen to go. I was

[00:23:23] surprised that someone, cause someone saw something in me that I didn't see myself at the time. And then when

[00:23:30] I was out there, circumstance meant I rapidly gained more, more responsibility than I'd ever had

[00:23:38] in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language initially. And I was navigating in circles

[00:23:47] of seniority that I'd never worked with on a daily basis before. And I felt, you know,

[00:23:55] there were times when I was terrified. I was thinking, God, I, I don't know what they know.

[00:24:01] I don't act like they do. I don't talk like they do. I don't have the experience that they do. But then

[00:24:07] through showing up, I thought, well, I don't need to mirror them or be a version of them.

[00:24:15] I need to address gaps where there are gaps that needed for me to address. But actually,

[00:24:22] I've got a skillset that's very different to them. And I'm going to lean into that.

[00:24:26] I'm going to show my value and I'm going to carry on asking silly questions,

[00:24:32] coming up with ideas and doing the things that I knew I was okay at. And through getting through that,

[00:24:39] you then go, well, I've done it once. I can now do it again. Like you can still get those,

[00:24:44] that feeling in the pit of your stomach where, yeah, you're right. You're looking over your

[00:24:48] shoulder because you feel like someone's going to throw you out and go, you're an imposter.

[00:24:52] You can still feel that and go, well, I felt this before and I've done all right. And I've used it as a

[00:24:57] fuel to go and get better. I think the most important thing, like you said, don't let it affect your

[00:25:06] self-worth, but also don't let it change you to the point where you're not being authentic, as you

[00:25:12] said, because everyone is different. Everyone brings something different. And yes, you can look at

[00:25:18] leaders and go, I like how they do that. I think I'll, I think I'll do a version of that. I don't

[00:25:25] like how they do that. I'm not going to do it, but you don't need to, you don't need to ape someone

[00:25:30] and then go, I'm going to be like exactly like them. Yeah. And look, it's all part of them.

[00:25:36] It's just evolution of, you know, we all, we all, you know, do, do an element of changing throughout

[00:25:41] the years. I mean, if I look back to 18 year old Dan handful nightmare, you know, loosely,

[00:25:48] would you even consider employable? Right. If I think about the, you know, my first,

[00:25:54] first team leader job at 23, 22 or something like that, you know, probably an awful leader.

[00:26:00] I, you know, I barely knew how to lead myself, you know, an ops manager job at 25, probably way

[00:26:06] too young to get the role, but learning on, on the job. Right. And, you know, even if I look at 30 year

[00:26:12] old Dan to where, where I am today, you know, I think I'm a, I've evolved, I've changed. I've got

[00:26:17] different views. I look at things through a different lens, you know, things happen in your life,

[00:26:22] became a parent that definitely gave me a different paradigm to, to look through. We had COVID,

[00:26:28] you know, all of these things happen. So you, you evolve, but you, you have to be

[00:26:34] still true to your, to yourself, just trying to be a carbon copy of, of somebody else won't work.

[00:26:40] Nor do we want that in the world. Right. And do we want a load of carbon copies? No. And that,

[00:26:45] that would stifle creativity and innovation. Right. And that's, you know, listen, we've got AI for that.

[00:26:52] That can be a carbon copy of itself. Non-stop regurgitating the same stuff over and over again.

[00:26:56] As humans, again, you've got to play to your strengths, right? It's that creativity. It's

[00:27:00] the way we think, but also being, you know, being aware that doesn't mean, you know, you can be

[00:27:04] authentic, authentic, authentically yourself, or, you know, not, not be appropriate with people or,

[00:27:12] or whatever else. Do you know what I mean? So there's, there's, there's limits to it. It's just that,

[00:27:16] that self-awareness, I think is a, is a really important point. And, you know, I think being

[00:27:22] true to yourself and the journey you're on and also understanding what it is you, you want to do,

[00:27:28] right? It doesn't have to be the, the rat race of, of climbing the, climbing the ladder, right?

[00:27:34] Because what, what, what ultimately are you in, in search of? What, what is it you're actually trying

[00:27:39] to achieve? And sometimes by stepping back and looking at that, that can, that can give you

[00:27:45] a bit of clarity on what it is you, you want to do, because maybe it isn't imposter syndrome,

[00:27:51] but maybe you're on the rat race trying to climb the ladder and you're in a room that you don't

[00:27:54] really want to be in, right? Because as humans, what do we generally want to do? We want to be,

[00:27:59] we want to be happy, right? That's, that's generally where we want to be. And on that,

[00:28:03] look, let's try and exercise. Let's try and exercise, right? So let me ask you a question,

[00:28:07] Martin, which is unusual for, for, for the host of a podcast. What do you hate doing?

[00:28:14] What do I hate doing? Admin and sales. And what, what would make you happy?

[00:28:34] Good question. Very good question. It's hard to narrow it down. I'll tell you what, I'll tell you

[00:28:44] what does make me happy. I mentioned it to you before we, we came on today. I got some great feedback about,

[00:28:51] how people in a, we've got a company that come into the team leader community and they put 15

[00:28:58] team leaders in on a three month trial. And today was a review session of that. And the feedback was

[00:29:05] amazing. And it's the, the happiness I guess is rooted in knowing the idea that I had and the work

[00:29:13] that I've put in and put in the community together has done what I wanted it to do. And it's helped

[00:29:20] people, you know, I'd, as part of this review, I didn't ask for feedback and just said, look,

[00:29:25] we've got some feedback for you taking the time to write it out here it is. And it was brilliant.

[00:29:30] So I think, I think that job well done and helping people. And, and look, firstly, I love that because

[00:29:37] you know, there's so many people cheering you on from the sidelines and credit well, well deserved.

[00:29:42] So go mine and people need to join up to the team leader community. But the point of the exercise

[00:29:48] was look how quick it was for you to tell me the things that you hate. I'm in sales, boom, done.

[00:29:53] Like I know what I really dislike doing. Whereas this sort of attaining happiness for the humans is

[00:30:02] a little bit more of a difficult task because what truly is, is going to, to make us happy. And I,

[00:30:08] you know, with, with a lot of my team, I often use the mountain analogy, right? And this kind of

[00:30:12] sums humans up where we're brilliant at this. So I want to go and climb up that mountain because

[00:30:17] the view at the top is going to be absolutely amazing. And we, we go through the archer's journey

[00:30:21] of getting up to this mountain and we get to the summit, we take a picture for the gram and we go,

[00:30:26] right, that was great. And then we back down where's the next mountain, right? So the top of

[00:30:29] that mountain, we thought there was this piece of happiness. We take a picture for the gram,

[00:30:33] we take it in, we, we have a sandwich, right? And so sometimes by looking through the lens of just

[00:30:39] trying to find happiness can be quite difficult, but what we're all good at is looking at those things

[00:30:43] that we really don't like. Right. And so sometimes when you do the exercise of where it is you want to go,

[00:30:48] sometimes start with those things that you hate doing, right? Because if you didn't have to do

[00:30:53] admin and sales, and I'm not saying life is this easy, you still going to need to do admin and sales,

[00:30:58] Martin. Well, do you think there'd be a little bit more happiness in what you could do and you'd

[00:31:02] focus on, on other things with that time? It's a great question. And actually,

[00:31:09] I'm, I didn't do philosophy, but I know this, I know this experiment. Okay.

[00:31:14] There was an experiment where it's theoretical, but they said, there's a tank. Okay. And this tank,

[00:31:23] you will be hooked up and immersed in it. And we will program the perfect life for you,

[00:31:32] whatever you want. You could, you can fly, you could be a secret agent, you could be rich, you could,

[00:31:37] and you will never, ever suffer anything go wrong ever. Life will be perfect. And the psychologist

[00:31:48] that did the experiment found that once they actually started discussing with people about

[00:31:54] this and got them to think about it of every, let's say they had a hundred test subjects,

[00:32:01] not one said that they would go in the tank because that's not life.

[00:32:09] Mike Barrett- Mistakes make the journey. Mistakes make the journey. And, and, and again,

[00:32:14] you know, I go back to that point at the very beginning and I know it's super morbid and nobody

[00:32:19] wants to talk about it, but it is ultimately a journey at some point, hopefully way, way in the future.

[00:32:25] Hopefully we can get to, you know, well over a hundred Martin and enjoy every bit of life,

[00:32:31] but you know, it's a real short time. And we're just, we're not, we're not even a blip in, in the

[00:32:36] world. Right. And another bit that, you know, for arts people is you don't even stay long in the,

[00:32:43] I know again, this is quite sad, but you don't stay long in the memory. Right. So if I think of

[00:32:47] whether my great, great, great, great granddad was, you know, I don't know that person.

[00:32:52] I don't know what gaffes they made at work. I don't know what they were like as a person.

[00:32:56] You kind of lose it. And even the most famous people in the world, right? Pele,

[00:33:00] widely regarded as one of the greatest footballers of all time. I remember when he died and the,

[00:33:06] the quite right emotion that came out and stadiums were going to be renamed. And,

[00:33:11] you know, the world cup should be called the Pele cup, you know, all this outpouring.

[00:33:15] It lasted a month and then people moved on and, you know, people barely mentioned,

[00:33:19] mentioned Pele anymore. Right. So it's also important not to

[00:33:22] get too caught up in the, you know, the, the worries and stuff of what, what you're doing.

[00:33:29] You just got to embrace everything because we're here for such a short amount of time.

[00:33:33] He's not going to live particularly long in, in the memory. So that's why I just encourage

[00:33:38] everyone to get out there, embrace challenge and, and particularly for the contacts in the world,

[00:33:42] which I have such a strong affinity and, and pair with and have worked with some of the best people

[00:33:48] of my career in. Go, go and be, go and be the change, right? It's, it's important that everybody

[00:33:55] gets out there and, and takes that voice of the customer and takes a different perspective into

[00:34:00] over departments. I can't, I can't encourage it enough.

[00:34:04] Well, we still claim you as our own, but we look upon you now as like our champion going out there or

[00:34:09] there and look at him, look at what he's doing in supply chain. I love it. But you, your, your message

[00:34:19] is spot on. It's a great place to, to draw this episode to a close is in, is a reminder that

[00:34:27] just talking to you now and knowing you, I'm not surprised that it, well, I am surprised it took

[00:34:33] you 15 minutes. Cause I imagine it was an instant yes for the role because you know, this is the,

[00:34:40] this is the person you are, you know, and it's a great message to share with people to go for that

[00:34:46] challenge, embrace the change because you're right. Like life is short and stop putting off things that

[00:34:53] would make it, uh, more fulfilling, let's say. Absolutely. And I want to, I want to, I want to give one,

[00:35:00] one more, more shout out potentially to any, anyone who's listening out there because you know,

[00:35:05] and you know, this is well, mine it's, it's tough in business and it's, it's tough in the, the contact

[00:35:11] center world. And again, I go back to this point of, you know, there's a, there's a lot of narrative

[00:35:16] and people who want to point out the shortcomings of business, particularly in customer service in

[00:35:23] CX world. But I've not worked anywhere where people aren't trying their absolute utmost to

[00:35:30] do the right thing and to, to get the best possible outcomes. And you know, I think everyone needs to

[00:35:35] take a moment to give themselves a pat on the back and applaud themselves. Of course, there's more work

[00:35:40] to do, but I can also say from the outside in it's, it's easy to point out the faults, but as, as you

[00:35:47] know, working in, in business is Tyson would say, right? Everyone's got a plan until they get punched

[00:35:53] in the face. If you're working in business, you get punched in the face a lot and plans have to change and

[00:35:59] you, you have to move with it. And yeah, I think it's just important that we, we also spread a bit

[00:36:05] of positivity about what, what a lot of business, I'm not saying all, and I know there's tons of

[00:36:10] work to do, but I've not worked anywhere where everyone isn't trying to, to do their absolute

[00:36:16] utmost to be, to be better every single day. And it's, it's, it's hard, but yeah, also, also keep going.

[00:36:24] Love it. Dan Cohen, legend now across two worlds. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for listening.

[00:36:32] Does your brand or company fancy increasing your brand awareness and sharing your stories

[00:36:38] and all of the things that you have going on at the moment? Then you should think about partnering

[00:36:43] with me here at Get Out A Wrap. We can do podcasts, live events, create content together,

[00:36:50] do research. You can come on and appear on Get Out A Wrap TV. And of course, I will share your brand

[00:36:57] and your logo across all of my channels. If this sounds something like you would be interested in,

[00:37:04] all you need to do is drop me an email at martin at getoutarap. Thank you for listening.

[00:37:10] I'll see you next week, or maybe join us on LinkedIn for our Get Out A Wrap TV show

[00:37:17] every Tuesday at 10am. Thanks a lot. Bye.